Monday, January 12, 2009

"Nannyism" Running Rampant

Nannyism - "Policies such as mandatory helmet laws and bans on smoking in public places, high taxes on junk food, recreational drug use, gun control, a legal drinking age or legal smoking age that is higher than the age of majority, censorship, seat belt legislation, and content regulation are criticized as nanny state actions. Such actions result from the belief that the state (or, more often, one of its local authorities) has a comprehensive duty to protect the citizenry from their own harmful behaviors, and assumes that the state knows best what constitutes harmful behavior."



There are many people - including those within government - who wish to ban anything they see as potentially harmful to citizens. This includes banning the game of tag because it "encourages fights." The same goes for any kind of "chasing games" - even touch football (Source: Nanny State: How Food Fascists, Teetotaling Do-Gooders, Priggish Moralists, and Other Boneheaded Bureaucrats Are Turning America into a Nation of Children, by David Harsanyi, pages 152-153) in many elementary schools.

Attempted bans on smoking, the drinking of alcohol - even things that a "normal" [yes, I'm saying these people are not 'normal'] person would think is insane to ban. The book Nanny State claims that the state of New York has even enacted bans on riding a bicycle without having your feet on the peddles, putting a plastic frame around your license plate, smoking in a bar, feeding pigeons, and even placing a bag next to you on a subway seat (Source: Nanny State, page 6).

I agree with the author, David Harsanyi, who continuously says how this country was set up as free and all this policing is needless and violates our freedoms and even privacy in some instances. It shouldn't matter what we do as long as one does no harm to another (I think this is the author's basic stance - though he does make it clear he feels some things should be banned for safety). When talking about the ban on smoking in many places around the country (page 110) Harsanyi says, "Who exactly asked for anyone's help? And what responsibility, if any, does government have to impel people to be healthy?....Sure, millions of people choose [emphasis in original] to smoke. They may be killing themselves. And as a public-policy matter, it's none of my business. Those are the risks, rewards, and choices associated with being free. With self-determination, we have to be prepared to accept that some people will make choices that fly in the face of reason" [emphasis mine].

This has been my entire point with the idea of anarchism - this is what anarchism entails! While I agree with the author and anyone else who advocates freedom, I don't agree with the fact that they sanction government intervention at least at some minimal level, while the anarchist feels that no government is needed whatsoever, and any infringement upon the human beings' natural rights should be abolished, including any and all taxation.

Again, as with another post I did about the hypocrisy of many atheists, some people make statements that - taken to their logical conclusion - would favor the concept of anarchism. That of allowing people to have true freedom to do what they want as long as they don't infringe upon other peoples' freedoms and rights.

This book, Nanny State, is truly a good book and I agree with 99.9% of everything the author has to say. I just don't agree that we need any form of government whatsoever. As I've argued elsewhere, power often corrupts individuals so to allow anyone to have power over you would be a bad decision.




"...a grant of liberties, no mater how extensive, is not full recognition of the fact of individual liberty."

- Rose Wilder Lane

7 comments:

  1. I couldn't have said it better.

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  2. Fascinating post.. "I just don't agree that we need any form of government whatsoever." Well, that certainly isn't the US. Perhaps you would be interested in moving to Iraq- they had quite a wild west going over there recently, though I guess, sadly, their state is somewhat up and running again. How about Afghanistan, or Somalia? Or some other state-less area where anarchy reigns?

    I guess what I am saying is that you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the results of having no government. If we were all angels, that would be one thing.

    As for the community's interests in keeping us safe and healthy, I am really on the fence there. As a normal, stick-in-the-mud citizen, I pay for the EMT's who scrape motorcyclists off the road, I pay for the emergency rooms that treat those with chronic health problems caused by smoking and other drugs, and I pay for the medical care that all this cause, whether through private or public insurance systems.

    On the other hand, letting evolution do a little more weeding out might not be such a bad thing, in some ways. But then a loved one dies after being mowed down by a drunk, and, well, that doesn't seem to great after all.

    Drugs are a classic case- while pot should be legal, there are other drugs (like nicotine, notably, but more classically heroin and crack cocaine) that are so extremely and rapidly addictive, that a moment of stupidity can buy a life of anguish, not only for the person doing them but for everyone around them and the larger community. The presumption that each person is completely rational / sovereign and fully capable of making every judgement for themselves without any help from the community is just not borne out by experience. Everyone ends up better off if some harmful and impulsive temptations are strongly discouraged through the considered long-term wisdom of the community.

    We live in communities and that is just the way it is for human beings. If you want to be Ted Kazynski living in a shack somewhere, that is still your sovereign right. But even so you would be dependent on other people for miscellaneous supplies. There is no way to live completely alone- no man is an island. As your blogging appears to indicate. And communities create duties as well as rights.

    Anyhow, it is fun to read your perspective! -Burk

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  3. Hello again Burk.

    It's clear you haven't read most of my arguments because if you had, I'm not talking about living in isolation. I'm talking about social contracts and living in a society, free of unneeded coercion. I also have written about societies without government and they contradict your (and others') usual hype about all hell breaking loose. Obviously those communities were smaller, but it shows the principals can work and can be worked out for a larger community. Anarchism isn't about allowing people to do whatever they want to others without consequence. It's that people are free to choose the rules they will live under and consequences will be agreed to before hand, just as in any social contract that people regularly agree to today. You sign on the dotted line to do X if you do not hold up your end of the contract.

    Thank you for reading, but you clearly need to read more to truly understand my views.

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  4. 1. How can you "choose" the rules to live under if you happen first to live in a geographic area, in a pre-existing community. Doesn't sound like much choice to me. As I said, you can move to many other communities with less, far less, government.

    2. What is the nature of the contract that you would like to agree to beforehand? If we have you one one side, the other 300 million inhabitants of the US on the other side, it is not clear how we arrive at an equitable arbitration. The practical way of going about this is with a majority rules system, with special restrictions for areas where majorities tend to do injury.. (the bill of rights). Those rules are indeed the ones you signed up for, when you were born, got your passport, etc...

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  5. Hi there Burk.

    1. I'm talking about a rehaul of the social order. Let's say a group gets together and decides that they dislike smoking for instance and so pass a ban against it. People who smoke obviously wouldn't like this idea, and their freedoms are at stake. With the system we have now, their freedoms to smoke are threatened. In an completely free society, it is not because they did not agree to said law. If it is a preexisting community the same would apply. Or they can choose to live elsewhere. Many people have argued that I should go live somewhere where there is less or no government, like you, in going to Iraq was it? Well, if I'm correct about their situation they do have a government, it's just a corrupt and disorganized one. There is really no place without a government at this time so that is pointless. Less government? You miss my point, but a favorite quote of mine should clear up what I think of even lesser government (though I do agree that smaller would be better, but until it exists the threat would always be there):

    "...a grant of liberties, no mater how extensive, is not full recognition of the fact of individual liberty."

    - Rose Wilder Lane

    There is always a choice if you abide by the concept of the social contract.

    2. The nature of the contract, even in your unlikely scenario of 1 vs. 300 million would be the same. A majority forcing themselves upon me, which is unethical and wrong. To use one example, do you feel it's OK for homosexuals to marry if they wish? A majority in many places voted no, and thus restricted these individuals' freedoms. Is this, then, "right" just because a majority decided on it? I hope you'd say no. In a truly free society with a social contract would not be able to force their views on other without their consent. Which obviously, no one is going to willfully give up their natural rights to do what they like as long as they don't harm anyone.

    So, with this example of a majority wrongfully suppressing the rights of a minority do you still think this is practical? Let me leave you with one more quote from a friend of mine, Bob Clapp:

    "The greatest good for the greatest number equals the maximum evil for the minimum number." [paraphrased]

    Think about this. This one sentence speaks volumes.

    I also do not understand how you can actually say I "signed up for" the rules of the US when I was born. That blows my mind to be honest. This is not a contract by any means. Did I actually agree to live by these (mostly pointless) rules? Of course not. That's like saying a child born into a cult chose to be a part of that cult, or someone being born into a family with a child molester chose to be molested and live in such a horrible situation.

    Thanks for the discussion. I'm enjoying it.

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  6. Hi, Arizona-

    My blog this week carries a quote from a book I was reading as we corresponded, which brought your issues to mind:


    "The citizens of Britain and the United States claim today to be free men and to live in free countries, but their freedom is only relative. In practive they have agreed to a compromise. They have consented to surender their freedom to a vague entity known as the majority, which can make laws which others must obey. Ini other words, men who live in settled communities are not personally free. In order to enjoy a limited amoun of freedom under such circumstances, they agree to surrender the remainder.

    The fact that, under this system, we still claim to be free, makes us fail to comprehend what freedom meant to a monadic Arab. He knew nothing of the majority. He claimed the right to do as he wished, even if every other man in earth disapproved of such action. The nomad really was free, and the key to his perfect freedom was mobility. As soon as these men came to live in cities and acquired immovable property, they lost their mobility and therefore their perfect freedom. But they did not of course think the matter out in this manner. Personal freedom had become to them an instinct. Although living now in houses and in cities, they were not prepared to take anyone's orders. Those who were trying to organize and rule an empire with such subjects soon found the task impossible." page 208


    John Bagot Glubb, 1966, The Empire of the Arabs

    So, as I was saying, being born in our society makes you party (by way of your ancestors, as so much else of your heritage comes from) to the social contract we have, not the one you might want, working from scratch. And as far as I can tell, the one you seek is thoroughly unrealistic as well as misanthropic. I might ask- are you an Ayn Rand fan? The Galt Gulch might be of interest.

    "The greatest good for the greatest number equals the maximum evil for the minimum number."

    This is pure assertion, not an argument. Does the US have gulags where the minority is exterminated? No, because we are slightly more enlightened than that. It would be helpful if you didn't focus on bizarre extremes, but deal with reality, including thought-out solutions that you would like in a real society.

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  7. Mr. Braun, yes that is the phrase that I have read in my friend Bob Clapp's book, Every Man and Woman an Island, and he is a reader of Ayn Rand. Besides that though, you seem to continue to misunderstand the entire point that I've tried to get you to realize. I do not harbor any kind of dislike or hatred against the human species; that's not what my friend's philosophy is about at all. It's not about cutting oneself off from society but a bottom up approach to living in society. Once again, I'd advice you to read more into what my opinions are because up to this point you don't seem to understand much of anything I've said. What I propose isn't unrealistic at all. What I propose is a privatization of all services and do without government - without unneeded force. This privatization has been done on many levels thus far as I explained in several writings. Bizarre extremes? What are you referring to? To my knowledge I do no such thing.

    And that phrase is the truth. You need look no further than our current system. Look at the vote. The majority taking away the freedoms of the minority: homosexuals as one example. Do you deny that this majority's' freedoms have not been taken away??? That phrase sums up part of the entire problem. Force instead of contracts. And evil instead of freedom.

    By the way, the entire point of a contract is that all parties involved agree to it; that's not a contract, that's force. That's coercion. What my ancestors did does not bind me since I did not agree to it. Like I said previously does the fact that a child born into an abusive family bind her to be a part of that family mean that she is forever a victim of her abuser (her father, uncle, etc.)? Of course not. She did not choose that life and should not be bound by it because of some quasi-mystical bit about ancestors and some supposed legacy. Besides, our ancestors' legacy (the U.S.) isn't exactly pretty (the mass murder of Native Americans, etc.). These solutions I have proposed have already been tried and have been successful if you have read where I write of these things (privatization).

    But once again, thanks for reading, but you seem too stuck in this false society-is-one kind of thinking - as if it's good for the majority it's good for the minority, which is a completely bastardized system and way of thinking. As that phrase so eloquently sums up:

    "The greatest good for the greatest number equals the maximum evil for the minimum number."

    That is absolutely true and it's a shame you don't see that.

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