Tuesday, April 27, 2010

More Proof that Red Light Cameras Cause Accidents



As if I needed to ram the point home any further: these cameras cause accidents and they are purely for revenue! It's nice to see a news station actually tell the whole truth for a change, instead of spinning the truth in favor of the government. This also further sticks it to those who seem to think I'm making this up! (see also the comments section of the latter linked to post).

Thanks to CameraFraud.com for the video:


video
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Christians + Smear Campaigns = Stupidity in Spades


Ah, those lovely smear campaigns that some people just love to spread about you. No, this post - amazingly enough - is not about David Marshall and his ilk, but another lie about me and (as far as I can tell) John Loftus.

I had read a post at Mr. Loftus' blog explaining how christians can't seem to refute the claims in his new book, The Christian Delusion so they are resorting to lies about him and alledgedy planning a campaign to get his new book down-voted with many phony negative reviews. I read this and immediately could sympathize with him because of the nearly year and a half discrediting campaign that was started against me at Amazon.com.

I commented to Loftus' post with the following:

Arizona Atheist said...

I feel for you Mr. Loftus. I've been a target of countless smears and character assassination attempts and it's not the least bit fun. My detractors' smears took place nearly uninterrupted for about a year and a half! It's exhausting and frustrating having to constantly defend yourself instead of having actual discussions with people. You're so right. If someone resorts to these unethical ploys they are the ones who have no argument. What's even more amazing is that these supposedly ethically superior christians are the ones doing this! Hypocrites all around!

My advice (though time consuming) is to post on your blog all of your detractors and their other identities and post it for all to see. Expose their lies and if you run across any of them in the future link to the well-research posted you created exposing them. That way you don't have to keep repeating the same things over and over again when defending yourself. Just link to that post and say, "These charges are all false. It's all right here at this link. Go take a look." That seemed to work for me. I haven't had too much trouble since I confronted one of my detractors with all the evidence. Amazingly enough (or perhaps not) even when confronted with the damning evidence that he lied about me, he still denied it, but he seems to be ignoring me since that last discussion. One still keeps at it, but the other two seemed to have gotten the message.

Good luck!

April 25, 2010 2:29 PM


A few weeks ago I commented on James S. Spiegel's blog (author of The Making of an Atheist) hoping to start a discussion about his book. You can find that post I commented on here. Well, a few days ago some christian commented on the same post with the following:

Goldstein Says:
April 25th, 2010 at 1:21 pm

Arizona Atheist is busy with his pal John Loftus smearing the oppositon with phony accusations.

Talking about setting up posts to target them etc. just today on the Loftus blog.

He does not want discussion. He wants publicity and to set you up.


I responded with the following:

Arizona Atheist Says:
April 27th, 2010 at 10:26 am

Goldstein,

What in the world are you talking about? You sound a bit disturbed there. Feeling a bit paranoid, are we? You also don’t have your facts right. I am not plotting anything, nor setting anyone up. You need to go back and reread what I said. Here I’ll even copy the comment:


I feel for you Mr. Loftus. I’ve been a target of countless smears and character assassination attempts and it’s not the least bit fun. My detractors’ smears took place nearly uninterrupted for about a year and a half! It’s exhausting and frustrating having to constantly defend yourself instead of having actual discussions with people. You’re so right. If someone resorts to these unethical ploys they are the ones who have no argument. What’s even more amazing is that these supposedly ethically superior christians are the ones doing this! Hypocrites all around!

My advice (though time consuming) is to post on your blog all of your detractors and their other identities and post it for all to see. Expose their lies and if you run across any of them in the future link to the well-research posted you created exposing them. That way you don’t have to keep repeating the same things over and over again when defending yourself. Just link to that post and say, “These charges are all false. It’s all right here at this link. Go take a look.” That seemed to work for me. I haven’t had too much trouble since I confronted one of my detractors with all the evidence. Amazingly enough (or perhaps not) even when confronted with the damning evidence that he lied about me, he still denied it, but he seems to be ignoring me since that last discussion. One still keeps at it, but the other two seemed to have gotten the message.

Good luck!

All I said is that if he can find the evidence against these accusations to post them in order to expose these liars. This is all assuming this is true and I have no reason to doubt it since I’ve had people lie about me in the past and I wrote him to tell him how I sympathize with him and gave him some advice on how to handle it because what I did worked for me. How you can so distort what I said makes me wonder if you’re trying to sabotage a nice discussion I’m seeking with Mr. Spiegel. What reason would I have in doing such a thing as attacking him in some way? He seems like a nice guy. I do not agree with him, but I am very curious to hear his opinion on things and to discuss his book if he’d like.

But if you can find proof that either myself or Loftus is ‘plotting’ anything by all means please post it and let me know about it. If not, everyone will see this for what it is. Just another dishonest and hypocritical attempt at a smear campaign.

Thanks.


I don't know what it is about christians who feel they have to lie all the time. There is clearly something wrong with that guy when I obviously didn't say anything of the kind. All I wanted was a good dialogue with a christian apologist and to discuss his book, just as I wanted to do with David Marshall and just as I did with another christian. Did I try to discredit the man? Was I rude? Hell no! I'm never rude to someone as long as they treat me fairly. I had a nice discussion and would like one with Mr. Spiegel, unfortunately it's beginning to look as if he's not going to respond to me.
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Monday, April 26, 2010

Arizona: Police Report Shows Speed Camera Caused Accident


Again, from thenewspaper.com:

Arizona: Police Report Shows Speed Camera Caused Accident
Anti-photo radar group uses police document to demonstrate how a speed camera caused an accident in Gilbert, Arizona.


Although independent studies have shown a link between the use of photo enforcement equipment and a statistically significant increase in the number of collisions, opponents of photo radar have produced few concrete examples of these incidents. In Arizona, the group CameraFraud.com has begun using freedom of information laws to get its hands on examples of accidents that would not have happened but for the presence of a speed camera van (view studies). [The article for some reason cited red-light camera studies when it's discussing speed cameras, so here is data on speed cameras in Arizona]

At around March 17th at about 4 p.m. a gray 2005 Ford SUV was driving on State Route 202 passing through the city of Gilbert. Traffic was light on the six-lane, 65 MPH freeway on a clear and bright day. When the 32-year-old Ford driver saw a speed camera van up ahead, he slammed on his brakes and slowed to just 35 MPH -- a common reaction near cameras as drivers seek to avoid receiving an expensive citation in the mail.

At the same time, a 22-year-old in a red 2008 Pontiac G6 was following behind without speeding, according to police estimates. The Pontiac driver briefly looked away from the car in front of her so that she could change lanes to the right. She did not expect the car ahead to suddenly scrub drop its speed by 30 MPH. As a result, the two cars collided just a few yards from a Redflex speed camera van.

Such incidents are quite common. A 2007 study by Arizona State University concluded that there was a 54-percent increase in rear-end collisions and a 9-percent increase in injuries from rear-end collision on the Loop 101 freeway during the state's first experiment with automated freeway ticketing. The study's author, paid by the city of Scottsdale, dismissed the significance of this finding by saying, "Increases in rear-end crashes are traded for reductions in other crash types."

According to a comprehensive British Medical Journal study published in 2006, that trade-off may not actually be worth making. The report found that police claims of a safety benefit from the use of speed cameras turned out to be false. To the contrary, an examination of actual hospital records showed an increase in the number of patients admitted from road accidents following the widespread introduction of automated ticketing machines in England (view study).

A copy of the accident report obtained by CameraFraud is available in a 400k PDF file at the link below.

Source: Crash Report 2010-013387 (Arizona Department of Public Safety, 3/24/2010)
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Hand Someone Power...Watch Them Abuse It


From thenewspaper.com the website lists a number of violations, unethical, and illegal activity by those who are supposedly the ones enforcing those same rules. As I've said countless times, people who allow others to have power over them are foolish and ignorant.


Red Light Camera and Speed Camera CrimeLine: Timeline of criminal indictments, trials and accusations surrounding the companies and individuals responsible for photo enforcement.

Although red light cameras and speed cameras are promoted as tools of law enforcement, they are, for the most part, wielded by a handful of private companies. In a number of well-documented cases presented chronologically below, these individuals and companies have shown disrespect to the laws they claim to be upholding. Highlights include FCC fines, fraud convictions, bribery convictions and speed camera vehicles busted for drunk driving.

[All links active as of 4-26-10]

December 2008

Redflex Traffic Systems agreed to pay the Federal Communications Commission $22,000 and to train its employees in US rules and regulations governing radar in order to settle a complaint against the Australian camera firm's illegal use of uncertified radar equipment. more

A Dallas County court ruled that Affiliated Computer Services (ACS) has been operating its red light camera business without a private investigator's license in violation of state law. Outcome: The case is ongoing. more

An appellate decision by the California Superior Court, found "cost neutrality" provisions common to more than forty photo enforcement contracts in the state to be illegal. In this case, Nestor's contract with Fullerton was found in violation of state law. Outcome: photo ticket ruled invalid. Outcome: Further court challenges ongoing. more

November 2008

Executives at photo enforcement firms American Traffic Solutions (ATS) and Redflex were caught ignoring their own speed camera tickets. Outcome: In a notable exception, ATS President Jim Tuton went to traffic school in December for a ticket he received from his own company. Court records show it was ignored initially. more


Washington, DC's Inspector General found the city's process for awarding the photo enforcement contract to ATS was riddled with errors. Outcome: No action taken. more

Arizona Treasurer declares the state's freeway speed camera law unconstitutional. Article 9, Section 22 of the Arizona constitution requires a super-majority vote of the legislature to adopt any provision that provides a net increase in revenue. No such vote was taken. Outcome: Ongoing. more

September 2008

A Redflex employee is busted for drunk driving in Scottsdale, Arizona while in a speed camera van on his way to ticket other motorists. Outcome: Redflex fired employee. Court case pending. more

Photo ticket process server, an officer of the Arizona court system, caught on tape yelling racist slurs at a motorist. Outcome: no action taken. more

US Attorney busted a police officer for embezzling $178,611 from the Washington, DC speed camera program. The officer was accused of claiming to have sat in the ACS/ATS speed camera car for 3400 hours; this did not actually take place. Outcome: Officer admitted guilt and faces jail time and fine. more

August 2008

In its own words, Redflex attempted to land illegal contract in Florida. The company stated, "Legal opinions indicate that automated enforcement in the state of Florida remains illegal" but nonetheless filed an application with Homestead, Florida to operate the city's red light cameras. Outcome: Homestead in September chose ATS. more

July 2008

Arizona Secretary of State confirmed that documents used to convict motorists of speeding in Lafayette, Louisiana contained elements that had been falsified. The Secretary's office rules that Redflex's notary public violated four Arizona laws while purporting to certify a speed camera deployment form for use in official hearings. Outcome: Redflex fired its notary. more

The UK Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), a government agency, determined that a speed camera operator, desperate to keep his position as the top ticket issuer, manipulated evidence to obtain more convictions from innocent drivers. Outcome: IPCC ordered £35,585 in refunds to victimized motorists, plus the cancellation of 1635 license points. No action taken against the operator. more

May 2008

Louisiana State Board of Private Investigator Examiners ruled that Redflex violated state law by operating without a private investigator's license. Outcome: Court decision pending. more

September 2007

Tarrant County, Texas District Attorney investigated possible open meeting law violations by mayor of Mansfield who lobbied behind the scenes to ram a red light camera contract through the city council. Outcome: The camera contract failed, but no action was taken against the mayor. more

May 2007

Texas Senate committee learn in an open hearing that a city police officer was receiving his full-time police salary from Nestor Traffic Systems. Outcome: Committee informed officer that he should retain legal counsel. more

City traffic engineer in Kansas City, Missouri lobbied city council to install red light cameras, then left a few months later to work for German speed camera vendor Traffipax. Former engineer then violated ethics rules by attempting to lobby the city to choose Traffipax as the camera vendor before a one-year lobbying prohibition had expired. Outcome: none. more

April 2007

Unanimous Minnesota Supreme Court ruling found that the Minneapolis red light camera program's elimination of the presumption of innocence was illegal. more

March 2007

ACS accused of vandalizing Washington, DC speed camera and red light camera equipment after the city dumped the company as its photo ticketing operator in favor of a rival firm. more in PDF

January 2007

Jay Morris Specter, a top red light camera salesman formerly with ATS and then Redflex, was convicted in South Carolina of $1.2 million in fraud. ATS had suspicions about Specter. "We terminated his contract," ATS spokesman Josh Weiss told TheNewspaper, referring to the company's action prior to the conviction. "We even called over to Redflex and warned them about Specter. Needless to say, they ignored us." Outcome: Specter will be released from prison in September 2010. more

November 2006

Two police officers killed a retired college professor in an accident caused while testing a new speed camera. The UK Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) investigated the possibility of criminal charges. Outcome: In October 2008, the police driver was found guilty of "careless driving," fined £500, and given a two-year license suspension. Serious charges were dismissed, but both officers received a written warning from the police superintendent. more

The Chief Executive Officer and Chief Financial Officer of Affiliated Computer Services resigned after admitting to stock option fraud. Outcome: CFO received $1 million and CEO $3.2 million for their stock options on top of a salary lasting through June 2007. more

Cape Town newspaper runs front page expose on lavish "booze cruise" thrown for 28 South African police officers by speed camera vendor Labat Traffic Solutions. more

August 2006

St. Peters, Missouri mayor caught on tape soliciting a cash bribe in return for his signature on a red light camera ordinance. Outcome: Former mayor was released to a halfway house in May 2008 and then released fully in August. more

July 2006

UK Statistics Commission slams Department for Transport (DfT) for using bogus numbers to promote the effectiveness of speed cameras. Outcome: DfT continues to use inflated figures. more

June 2006

UK Advertising Standards Agency charged Greater Manchester police with dishonest advertising in material promoting the use of speed cameras. more

A pair of Edmonton, Canada police officers along with camera vendor Affiliated Computer Services faced charges in an alleged bribery scheme. The officers accepted lavish gifts from ACS -- including travel, sports tickets and female escort services -- in return for a recommendation that ACS be given a no-bid, $90 million photo ticketing contract. Outcome: In October 2008, a judge let the police officers and ACS off the hook without bringing the case to a jury. Even before this trial outcome, the Kiwanis Club in December 2007 gave one of the officers involved its "top cop" award. more

May 2006

Police Complaints Authority investigated allegations that an unsworn South Australian police employee attempted to run down a motorist while behind the wheel of a mobile speed camera vehicle. more

December 2005

UK Department for Transport (DfT) admitted that 80 percent of claimed reductions in accidents that the department attributed to the benefit of speed cameras was actually due to a statistical error known as "regression to the mean." Outcome: DfT continues to use the same statistics. more

November 2005

Cranston, Rhode Island mayor dropped a no-bid speed camera contract with Nestor Traffic Systems after reports revealed that the company had made substantial campaign donations to the mayor's primary challenge for a US Senate seat. Outcome: The mayor lost the primary. more

May 2005

Parliament questioned why a top cop in New South Wales, Australia was buying stock in Redflex, the Australian photo enforcement company. Outcome: Police cleared the police traffic services commander superintendent of wrongdoing. more

December 2004

A Shropshire, UK speed camera van that had just issued thirty tickets to motorists was itself ticketed for doing 65 MPH in a 50 zone. A private citizen similarly recorded a Scottish speed camera van doing 45 MPH in a 30 zone. Outcome: No action taken. more

November 2004

Edmonton, Canada police officers were investigated after setting up the "Overtime Bar" sting designed to frame an Edmonton Sun columnist for drunk driving. A police sergeant admitted under oath that he used the police database to gather information on the columnist because he had criticized photo radar. Outcome: In December 2005, police investigating the police involved in the sting absolved police of wrongdoing. more

For more information about speed and red light cameras please visit this link
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Sunday, April 25, 2010

My Review of The Making of an Atheist is Featured in the The 140th Carnival of the Godless!


I'm very happy to announce that my latest refutation of the book, The Making of an Atheist, by James Spiegel, is featured in the most recent Carnival of the Godless, hosted at 360 Degree Skeptic. I hope I get some good feedback on the review. I even contacted the author at his blog and I commented on a few of his posts, but as of yet haven't heard back from him. The two posts where I commented are the following:

1. To the God Who Might Be There (accessed 4-25-10)

2. Darwin’s Ten Worst Nightmares (accessed 4-25-10)
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Wednesday, April 21, 2010

Antony Flew, 1923–2010: A Tribute




In this week's eSkeptic, Kenneth Grubbs has written a brief, but fantastic, article about the late Antony Flew whose remaining years were rife with controversy over his subsequent conversion from atheism to Deism. In this article Grubbs summarizes Flew's life and his failing mental capacity, and thus his likely exploitation at the hands of christian apologists. It is this last subject that interested me the most since I've encountered a few christian apologetic works that have used Flew as some kind of "evidence" as to the truth of their beliefs, such as Scott Hahn and Benjamin Wiker's Answering the New Atheism: Dismantling Dawkins' Case Against God (2008) and James S. Spiegel's The Making of an Atheist: How Immorality Leads to Unbelief (2010).


Antony Flew, 1923–2010: Following the Argument Wherever it Leads, a tribute by Kenneth Grubbs

A bristling chill swept the dimming colorless sky over Reading, England one evening earlier this year. In weather uncannily, perhaps even poignantly, similar it was my profound pleasure to speak at length with the delightful and charming Annis Flew, wife of the now notorious Antony Flew who, after almost 70 years vigorously defending atheism apparently changed his mind. Today, at the age of 87, Flew considers himself a deist. At least that is what Annis made clear to me when we spoke in January.

Flew, The Man

At the University of Oxford, during the war-ravaged 1940s, a group of undergraduate students, presided over by C. S. Lewis, gathered each Monday evening below ground in the Junior Common Room of St. Hilda’s College to passionately debate Christianity and atheism.

This elite group, known as The Socratic Club, was the “intellectual hub of Oxford.” At its core is the Socratic maxim to “Follow the argument wherever it leads,” a principle that would guide Flew his entire life. It was here at the Socratic club in 1950 that a 27-year old Flew presented his first relevant work, Theology and Falsification. It was also here at Oxford that he would meet Annis, the woman who would become his wife and lifelong friend and the woman with the kind and steady voice I would speak with on a crisp January evening, some 60 years later.

Professor Flew authored more than 35 books and essays on such diverse philosophical topics as free will and determinism, crime, evolution, logic, ethics, and language. His landmark works include God and Philosophy (1966), The Presumption of Atheism (1976), and now, of course, There is a God: How the World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind (2007). I tried to gain access to Professor Flew for this story, but he was in an Extended Care Facility in Reading, England, tired, confused, and in the paralyzing grasp of advanced dementia. He had been there for well more than a year, and Annis informed me that “Tony is rarely aware of his surroundings anymore.” There would be no interview.

Flew, The Book

There is a God was published in 2007 by Harper One, the imprint of Harper Collins focusing on predominantly religious and spiritual works. The book is “about why I changed my mind,” Flew writes. His name appears in large print on the jacket. Below it, in considerably smaller type, it reads “with Roy Abraham Varghese.” From the jacket we also learn that the book is the “Winner of the Christianity Today Book Award.” This is a curious honor, given that deism shares almost nothing with Christianity, nor any other religion; but far more importantly, Annis informed me without hesitation that “Tony never came to recognize any of the revealed religions.”

Roy Varghese penned the 18-page Preface. The Introduction is written by Flew, spanning four and one half pages. In it comes the thunderous recant, “I now believe there is a God.” There are two Appendices. Roy Varghese writes the first. Its 22 pages consist of one part “New Atheist” bashing, and two parts tiresome argument. Bishop N.T. Wright, an Oxford New Testament Scholar, writes the second appendix. Before Wright begins his 28-page essay, “The Self-Revelation of God in Human History: A Dialogue on Jesus,” there is a brief paragraph by Flew inviting Wright to contribute, an odd invitation from a deist.

Flew, The Controversy

In December of 2004, 54 battle weary years after Theology and Falsification was first introduced at the Socratic Club, a lifetime of work was forever fractured when the Associated Press released the story that Antony Flew, famed British philosopher and atheist, “now believes in God.” In 2007, not long after Flew’s book was released, Mark Oppenheimer wrote an essay in the New York Times magazine (“The Turning of an Atheist,” November 4), for which he interviewed both Flew and Varghese. I spoke with Mark in February, who told me that Professor Flew informed him with no ambiguity that he did not write the book. “This is really Roy’s doing,” Flew said, “He showed it to me and I said OK.” When Oppenheimer interviewed Varghese, he too stated that the book was his idea, and that he (Varghese) “did all the original writing,” but that the “substantive” material came from Flew’s previous work. Oppenheimer describes Varghese as a Christian apologist as well as a “crusader for (and financial backer of) those who believe that scientific research helps verify the existence of God.” Varghese met Flew at a conference in 1985.

Subsequent to Oppenheimer’s story, Varghese wrote a letter to the editor of the New York Times magazine: “First the good news: Antony Flew is alive and well (physically and mentally)” (“Doubting Antony Flew,” November 5, 2007. This letter was written just one year prior to Flew’s dementia requiring hospitalization).

When I spoke with Mark he reminded me that Harper One wasn’t entirely satisfied with Varghese’s prose, so they asked Bob Hostetler, an evangelical pastor, to re-write many of the passages, “To make it more reader friendly,” according to Varghese himself. So the ghostwriter had a ghostwriter!

In essence then, two-thirds of Antony Flew’s book is actually Roy Varghese writing for Flew, with some undefined portion written by Bob Hostetler writing for Varghese. The remaining one-third of the book is Varghese writing as Varghese, taking puerile whacks at the “New Atheists” in Appendix A; and Bishop Wright in Appendix B, writing as Bishop Wright, presenting his 28-page Christian dissertation. As Annis said, “All those Christians [were] trying to pull him to their bosom.” Yet almost unbelievably, nowhere in There is a God is any of this information disclosed. The omissions alone are disturbing. “The most disappointing thing to me,” Oppenheimer told me, reflecting back with clear candor, “is the cynicism of the publishing industry. They knew they made a mistake, and never took the opportunity to correct it.”

Roy Varghese declined my request for an interview. He did email me a written statement to highlight three points. First, he explained that the statements made in the book have been made by Flew in other forums as well. Second, Flew signed off on the book’s manuscript multiple times. And third, Varghese arranged a special meeting attended by himself, Professor Flew and Professor Richard Swinburne, famed Christian apologist and long time friend of Flew. The expressed intent of the meeting was for Swinburne to assess Flew’s genuine views, as well as his capacity. Swinburne wrote a testament proclaiming Flew’s grasp of the material, suggesting that Flew’s position was “most of the way toward Christianity.” (Varghese was kind enough to send me a copy of Swinburne’s statement).

The fact that Varghese felt the need for a third party confirmation regarding Flew’s capacity raises concerns. And having decided that such a confirmation was necessary, it would have been more persuasive had a truly independent third party, rather than a Christian apologist, conducted it.

Of the three important points Varghese wanted me to know, point number three negates points one and two. If Flew’s capacity is questionable to Varghese, then the credibility of expressing his newfound views in other forums and signing off on manuscripts is not compelling.

At this juncture then, having reviewed the controversy, having considered Flew’s age and capacity, and having considered the potentially biased motives of those around him, our story finally intersects with its purpose. Simply put, these antics are of no relevance to us here. Why? Because the Socratic maxim so dear to Flew’s heart is not to follow the man; it is instead to follow the argument. Professor Antony Flew affirms that he is a deist; so stipulated. We will follow the argument and see where it leads.

Flew, The Argument

When someone abandons lifelong convictions, changes their mind, and writes a book to explain it all, we should expect new and dramatic reasoning. Let’s follow the argument spelled out in There is a God.

“Science spotlights three dimensions of nature that point to God,” the argument begins in earnest, summarily invoking the authority of science. “The first is the fact that nature obeys laws. The second is the dimension of life, of intelligently organized and purpose-driven beings, which arose from matter. The third is the very existence of nature.”

Notice that these points are nothing more than observations for which science is seeking evidence. They are, in and of themselves, not evidence per se, nor do they “point to” anything, despite the semantic implications to the contrary.

The argument continues, “How did the laws of nature come to be? How did life as a phenomenon originate from non-life?” And lastly, “How did the universe, by which we mean all that is physical, come into existence?”

The three scientific observations preceding these questions have been carefully crafted into questions from which the inferences, according to the authors, can only be God. Put more simply, the unspoken conclusion we are to infer is, what else could it be, but God? This is the backbone of the argument for deism. The enigmatic truth that biology and cosmology remain confounded by these questions has been creatively reconstituted into would be articles of evidence.

Flew/Varghese argue that, “Perhaps the most popular and intuitively plausible argument for God’s existence is the so-called argument from design.” Having now read hundreds of pages of masterfully constructed arguments from this classically trained Oxford philosopher, in my opinion Professor Flew would shudder at the notion of employing “popular” or “intuitively plausible” statements as arguments for or against anything. They write, “What I think the DNA material has done is that it has shown, by almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce life, that intelligence must have been involved.”

Consider this passage from God and Philosophy, written by Flew in 1966: “Certainly it is proper to feel the awe in the contemplation of the human eye or of the single living cell. But no exploitation, however breathtaking, of the limitations and potentialities of materials would give good ground for inferring Omnipotence.” So what changed? Did complexity became more complex? Did design became better designed? Is Flew’s qualification, “however breathtaking,” invalidated by the complexity of DNA?

Another cornerstone of any argument for deism is the Anthropic Principle. Flew/Varghese submit the weight of electrons, the speed of light, and gravitational constants to demonstrate that the universe is too “fine tuned” to be accidental. Again, these observations contribute nothing substantive — they are simply statements about the universe, not packets of data’ — save the same misleading implication what else could it be, but God? The authors conclude: “The only satisfactory explanation for the origin of such ‘end-directed, self-replicating’ life as we see on earth is an infinitely intelligent Mind.” The logic proffered fails as an argument because it requires us to accept the lack of knowledge as knowledge, and the lack of evidence as evidence. This is Argumentum ad Ignorantiam, or, appeal to ignorance. It is also the Burden of Proof Fallacy, which states that if we cannot prove X to be false, then X is true; the inability to disprove X becomes the proof of X. The argument is of course invalid.

Bertrand Russell was fond of suggesting that a teapot orbited the sun just beyond Mars; no one can disprove his claim, therefore it is true. If we follow the this line of reasoning we must accept the conclusion that the more evidence we lack … the greater the likelihood that God exists. The argument beckons for God to be defined as “the sum of all knowledge yet acquired.”

This was the reason Flew wrote The Presumption of Atheism back in 1976. It was written to mirror the legal maxim, Ei incumbit probation qui dicit, non qui negat, or “The onus of proof lies on the proposition, not on the opposition.” Flew noted in that book: “If it is to be established that there is a God, then we have to have good grounds for believing that this is indeed so. Until and unless some such grounds are produced we have literally no reason at all for believing.” The absence of evidence hardly qualifies as “good grounds” for anything, much less god, and thus our expectations for some epiphanic insight to leap from the pages of this book and help us understand the basis for Professor Flew’s recantation have been thoroughly dashed.

The landscape of science has changed in almost unrecognizable proportions since Flew’s early life. However, it is unreasonable — irrational even — to suggest that Flew’s original position opposing complexity as an argument for a Divine Mind was only a matter of degree. If complexity is a poor argument for the existence of God (and it is) then the degree of complexity is an irrelevant attribute.

Flew, The Conclusion

As a species our hunger for answers is insatiable. So desperate are we to understand the universe around us that for untold centuries we have refused to accept any “gap” in that understanding. Unexplained phenomena are the spawning grounds for ghost stories, sea monsters, grassy knolls, and a Divine Mind.

Antony Flew understood this as well as anyone. He devoted a lifetime of vigorous intellectual argument against presuming God. Today we are asked to accept that he has changed his mind. With asterisks in hand, we accept.

Could we make a cogent argument “pointing to” his age and capacity as factors that might mitigate a change of this magnitude? We could. Are there uncertainties that could warrant a tenable challenge to the motives of those individuals surrounding Flew, with regard to his “conversion” and the curiously construction and authorship of the book? There are. Should the publishers bear any responsibility for preventing misperceptions concerning the disclosure of would-be ghostwriters? They should.

There is little hope of ever reconciling the Antony Flew of 87 years with the Antony Flew of 27 years. Did he change his mind, or did his mind change him?

History will record Antony Flew as a deist; Annis Flew confirmed that for us all. History, I fear, becomes an unwitting conspirator, forever defiled.

With so many varied aspects to this story, it is easy to forget that which matters most. Antony Garrard Newton Flew, philosopher, professor, author, atheist pioneer, and devoted husband, is now gone. For more than 60 years this thinker, this man of great intellect, marched to a different drum and followed the argument. We owe him much.

The last of the old guard, Professor Flew’s festschrift deserves to be written with admiration and respect for a distinguished philosopher. As Annis said to me, her accent reminiscent of British Royalty and her voice never wavering, “I am so very proud to have known him.”

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Willfully Ignorant, Shameful, or Just Plain Stupid?



I've come across a blog called Makarios that makes a half assed attempt to argue against the many studies which show that red-light cameras cause accidents.

I found it through a Google search and it kind of pissed me off because this idiot fails to even link to the post he is trying to argue (let alone even my blog itself!) so I'm not even sure what he's directly responding to, but he makes use of the all popular "I don't have a counter argument, I just don't like what you have to say, so I'll insult you" tactic. As it so happens, this is the same guy who couldn't seem to wrap his head around the fact that these cameras cause accidents when we had a short back and forth at another post in the comment section. Even there I cited studies, but he just ignored them! Having been proven wrong here, I guess he decided to whine at his own blog and hope I never saw it. He thought wrong.

The name of his post is titled "Funny? Shameful? OR Stupid?" where he apparently is bitching about a variety of things like how atheists argue that social Darwinism isn't evolution, about another atheist who is complaining about speed traps, etc. The short section where he mentions me is his first complaint and he says:

1) Arizona Atheist: ‘Red light cameras are a bad idea for two reasons -
One, the police are using them for surveillance.
Two, when people slam on their brakes so as not to be caught running a red light, others from behind are crashing into them.’

I'm not kidding. That's what he wrote.

A.A. doesn’t blame the accidents on the second driver tailgating with the intention of running the red light along with the guy in front of him (hence the need for the cameras in the first place).

A.A. lays the blame for accidents on the cameras themselves.


He makes it appear that this is nothing more than my opinion (and because he failed to link to my blog in any way no one can check why I said this), of course, if he had actually looked at some of the studies I cited, such as this one, maybe he wouldn't be looking like such a fool right about now...

The article says in part:

"The rigorous studies clearly show red-light cameras don’t work,” said lead author Barbara Langland-Orban, professor and chair of health policy and management at the USF College of Public Health.

“Instead, they increase crashes and injuries as drivers attempt to abruptly stop at camera intersections. If used in Florida, cameras could potentially create even worse outcomes due to the state’s high percent of elderly who are more likely to be injured or killed when a crash occurs.”


Now, someone may argue that these rear-end collisions are more preferable than the side-impact crashes these cameras are supposed to stop, but a 2005 Federal Highway Administration (FHWA-HRT-05-048) study shows the right-angle crashes were only decreased by 40%, while an increase in overall crashes (due to rear-end collisions) occurred. These more dangerous right-angle crashes were decreased by less than half! Another study showed that only a 24.6% drop in right angle crashes occurred! A 2005 Washington Post article also stated,

"Three outside traffic specialists independently reviewed the data and said they were surprised by the results. Their conclusion: The cameras do not appear to be making any difference in preventing injuries or collisions. 'The data are very clear,' said Dick Raub, a traffic consultant and a former senior researcher at Northwestern University's Center for Public Safety. 'They are not performing any better than intersections without cameras.'"

This, while crashes overall increased! If this guy had done his research he would have (possibly) seen that these cameras do not make the roads safer and are purely for revenue! How do I know this? Because, many states, after the installation of the red-light cameras, shortened the length of the yellow light times, thus ensuring people would run the red lights! The more people who run red lights, the more tickets they can issue, and the more money they get. And people actually think these cameras are there to increase safety? Bullshit!

If this idiot had done some actual research instead of flapping his mouth off he would have seen that increasing yellow light times dramatically cuts right-light running:

Eric Skrum, Communications Director for the National Motorists Association said, "Records from Fairfax County show that increasing the time of yellow lights significantly decreases the number of red light violations. The Virginia Department of Transportation increased the yellow time on the traffic lights at US50 and Fair Ridge Drive by 1.50 seconds on March 26, 2001. This increase in yellow time from 4.00 seconds to 5.50 seconds resulted in a 94 percent drop in citations, less than one per day, at this red light camera enforced location."

Red-light running has a pretty easy fix: simply give more time for people to get through the yellow light!

Even though I've demolished this guy's pathetic whining he mistakes for an argument, this guy has another complaint, however. He complains because I complain about the privacy issues with these cameras that record people 24/7. Well, excuse me! But I do not appreciate being recorded wherever I go! With all of these cameras going up, our right to privacy is being entirely eroded! The only place there aren't any cameras is inside our homes, and who knows how much longer until that becomes a reality?! Think it won't happen?! What if the government makes use of that useful weapon called fear (just as they did with their bullshit war in Iraq!) to get us behind a campaign to stop people from making drugs so the government forces all home builders to install cameras throughout the houses they build, hidden so as to prevent tampering. Or they do the same thing, but argue they want to more easily find "illegal alians" or terrorists hiding out! It's happened before with the Patriot Act, and many of our other rights (see James Bovard's Lost Rights: The Destruction of American Liberty). The government is like the old Arabian proverb: "If the camel once gets his nose in the tent, his body will soon follow."

He also neglects to mention an example I gave of cameras being put in place for safety at a boarder crossing being used by unethical people to spy on innocent people! The same can, and likely is, happening with red-light cameras! I even cited a statement by the ACLU about cameras!

"There are also important privacy issues raised by the cameras. The ACLU is most concerned about what we call 'mission creep' -- that the data collected by these cameras will be used for purposes other than tracking reckless drivers. Government and private-industry surveillance techniques created for one purpose are rarely restricted to that purpose, and every expansion of a data bank and every new use for the data opens the door to more and more privacy abuses.

Similar systems have already been used to invade privacy. For example, cameras installed at the Texas-Oklahoma border have been used to capture the license plate numbers of thousands of law abiding persons, who were subjected to inquiries about why they were crossing the border."


I think this idiot (and anyone else who thinks like him!) should heed these words because they might be written on his tombstone some day:

"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."

- Benjamin Franklin (or not?)
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Tuesday, April 20, 2010

New Social Networking Gadget!




Hi everyone! I've just added a new social networking gadget to the side bar on my blog, which lets you, the readers, choose a variety of social networking websites to share some of your favorite posts. If you happen to be reading something you think is worthy of spreading far and wide, please help me out by sharing as much content as you'd like!

Thanks!

8-16-10: I've since removed that application and installed a different social networking button which now shows up at the end of every post.

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Obama Calls for the Assassination of an American Citizen?



I've heard this repeated on various news websites, such as Salon.com and freerepublic.com, and I found videos of a Keith Olbermann segment on the matter:

Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy



Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy



Assuming this is true, this is a tremendous violation of this man's rights. A trial where he is allowed to be heard is one of the bedrock principles of (alleged) freedom we have in this country and, as I've said over and over again, one man has the power to murder anyone or set them free with the flick of a pen (highlighting the 'god-like' aspects of the state)! How anyone can sit there and think this is OK is beyond me.

I've seen some references to NY Times articles discussing this story (I've looked but cannot find the actual articles supposedly being referenced), but other than the Olbermann clips haven't seen any large, mainstream news outlets cover this story. I'm not sure if that's just because they're doing what the media usually does in not covering a story so as to keep the people in the dark, or this story is just a rumor or exaggeration.
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Thursday, April 15, 2010

Dialogue Concerning Consciousness & Atheism



A few days ago I began to have a discussion about consciousness and the alleged mind-brain dualism with Paul Adams, who owns the blog in Christ Jesus. It's a very interesting discussion and I'm enjoying it, and also getting a chance to see his points of view. This is a subject I haven't discussed much and is also a bit educational since I'm learning more about this particular topic. While I think his views are wrong he's a very nice gentleman and even though we disagree I'm still enjoying the discussion.

We began our discussion when I commented on his Amazon.com review of The Making of an Atheist and it's sort of morphed into a discussion about mind-brain dualism.

Feel free to go and check it out!


Update - 4-16-10

Well, I just left my last message at Mr. Adam's website. I felt we were pretty much going in circles and he couldn't seem to rebut the scientific arguments I provided proving that the mind and brain are one and the same. I thanked him and said I enjoyed the discussion, which I did. It was very interesting and he is a nice guy. It's so nice to have a discussion with a theist who is polite. I haven't experienced that much the last few years being on Amazon.com and all with my few detractors throwing out insults and put-downs every other sentence.

For future reference, here is our exchange as of my last reply (assuming he replies to my last message). Mr. Adam's statements will be in bold; mine in regular font.

Arizona Atheist:

Hi Mr. Adams,

I’ll just go ahead and copy/paste my question from Amazon.

If atheism is supposedly about “moral rebellion” why is it that study after study shows that theists are no more moral than atheists (some studies even give atheists the edge)? If atheists are supposedly in denial about “design” in the universe, then why were all of Spiegel’s arguments for design incorrect? Atheists disbelieve for intellectual reasons, as the author even quotes a few atheists, but ignored those reasons entirely and argued the reason was psychological. He was clearly reading what he wanted into the statements made by atheists (with the exception of Nagel, as far as I can tell) and builds his case around his own faulty assumptions.

Thanks.


Mr. Adams:

@Arizona Atheist:
Thanks for your comments here. A few ideas in response:

1. Asserting something is so does not make it so. By citing “study after study shows…” or “Spiegel’s arguments for design are incorrect” without offering your sources for these or counter arguments that try to convince does not persuade. You may be right there are studies offering evidence to the contrary of Spiegel’s thesis, or that his version of the design argument is faulty, but I remain unconvinced by your mere assertions.
2. You claim “atheists disbelieve for intellectual reasons.” Are you speaking for all atheists? As my original post suggests, I would agree some do disbelieve first for intellectual reasons. But I’m not sure we can make a sweeping claim that all do. In Spiegel’s defense, while I do think he’s overstated his case, there are some atheists no doubt who wish to justify a lifestyle that is not morally accountable and then seek reasons for the behavior in their belief system. In fact, I can recall times when I decided to do something knowing is wrong, only to find later that I had little justification for it, and then seek to resolve that dissonance by finding beliefs to support the very thing I’d done so as to appease my psyche. That psychology is involved in belief formation does not, therefore, make it untenable altogether as you suggest. Thus, our experience does map to this kind of “do first, then believe” methodology.
3. Having said all of this, you are absolutely correct that many theists are no more “moral” than their a-theists fellows. Theism does not immediately usher anyone into morally perfect lives. What theism does do, however, is give one an epistemological grounding (rational justification) for moral law that is objective. As Bill Craig (among others) has argued, atheists and theists alike can do good without believing in God, but goodness has no objective grounding without a moral Lawgiver.

Hope this helps.



Arizona Atheist:

Mr. Adams, thanks for the reply.

1. Asserting something is so does not make it so. By citing “study after study shows…” or “Spiegel’s arguments for design are incorrect” without offering your sources for these or counter arguments that try to convince does not persuade. You may be right there are studies offering evidence to the contrary of Spiegel’s thesis, or that his version of the design argument is faulty, but I remain unconvinced by your mere assertions.

I agree, but I have those facts right here. Here are a few studies that prove my case:

In 1934 Abraham Franzblau found a negative correlation between acceptance of religious beliefs and three different measures of honesty. As religiosity increased, honesty decreased. In 1950 Murray Ross conducted a survey among 2,000 associates of the YMCA and discovered that agnostics and atheists were more likely to express their willingness to aid the poor than those who rated themselves as deeply religious. In 1969 sociologists Travis Hirschi and Rodney Stark reported no difference in the self-reported likelihood to commit crimes between children who attended church regularly and those who did not. David Wulff’s comprehensive survey of correlational studies on the psychology of religion revealed that there is a consistent positive correlation between ‘religious affiliation, church attendance, doctrinal orthodoxy, rated importance of religion, and so on’ with ‘ethnocentrism, authoritarianism, dogmatism, social distance, rigidity, intolerance of ambiguity, and specific forms of prejudice, especially against Jews and blacks.’

As far as problems with Spiegel’s design arguments:

He argues that the expansion rate of the Big Bang had to be accurate to within one part in 10-55. Any slower and the universe would have collapsed. Any faster and there would be no stars or planetary systems.

My answer (citing Victor J. Stenger):

“[t]his has an easy answer. If the universe appeared from an earlier state of zero energy, then energy conservation would require the exact expansion rate that is observed. That is the rate determined precisely by the fact that the potential energy of gravity is exactly balanced by the kinetic energy of matter.”

“So, instead of being an argument for God, the fact that the rate of expansion of the universe is exactly what we expect from an initial state of zero energy is a good argument against a creator. Once again, we have no fine-tuning because the parameter in question is determined by a conservation principle, in this case conservation of energy.”

He also brings up the long discredited claim that there aren’t any transitional fossils. That issue has been done to death so many times I don’t feel the need to respond to that here.

2. You claim “atheists disbelieve for intellectual reasons.” Are you speaking for all atheists? As my original post suggests, I would agree some do disbelieve first for intellectual reasons. But I’m not sure we can make a sweeping claim that all do. In Spiegel’s defense, while I do think he’s overstated his case, there are some atheists no doubt who wish to justify a lifestyle that is not morally accountable and then seek reasons for the behavior in their belief system. In fact, I can recall times when I decided to do something knowing is wrong, only to find later that I had little justification for it, and then seek to resolve that dissonance by finding beliefs to support the very thing I’d done so as to appease my psyche. That psychology is involved in belief formation does not, therefore, make it untenable altogether as you suggest. Thus, our experience does map to this kind of “do first, then believe” methodology.

Yes, people do things for emotional reasons, I’m not doubting that, but as far as the subject of disbelief goes, going from my own experience, and every other atheist I’ve spoken with and read their books, I’ve yet to find an atheist who disbelieved for an emotional reason, other than Thomas Nagel (assuming he wasn’t being taken out of context, but it seems he wasn’t, though I’m not 100% positive), who Spiegel cites to support his case. Funny thing is, though, is that he was the only atheist he could find who did so. There might be some atheists who disbelieve for emotional reasons, but Spiegel failed to find any to help support his case.

3. Having said all of this, you are absolutely correct that many theists are no more “moral” than their a-theists fellows. Theism does not immediately usher anyone into morally perfect lives. What theism does do, however, is give one an epistemological grounding (rational justification) for moral law that is objective. As Bill Craig (among others) has argued, atheists and theists alike can do good without believing in God, but goodness has no objective grounding without a moral Lawgiver.

Objective morality from religion? I don’t see how. The Euthyphro Dilemma is an age old argument that theists haven’t been able to get around yet. Morality is subjective and changes over time. There are also secular moral systems, such as the social contract, that can be used to ground morality. Besides, as Spiegel even admitted, many theists fail to live up to this supposed objective standard so what’s the point in making such a claim in the first place? This is a consistent observation throughout history.

I’m looking forward to your reply.

Take care.

Mr. Adams:

@Arizona Atheist
Without engaging your responses precisely and entering into an outright debate (not the point of my review of Spiegel’s book), let’s assume all of your points are valid, true, and worthy of belief and commitment (as you clearly do). In fact, let’s assume that a) all religious beliefs having to do with God are sheer nonsense and every human is nothing more than a collection of cells that is a product of Darwinian natural processes, all of reality is made up of physical properties, the sum of which have only partially been discovered via scientific means, and there is no life after death but only the expectation of becoming “food for worms” (thank you, Nietzsche) b) the universe has no design or Designer, and c) any sense of morality is pure social convention or the product of our genetic coding (Dawkins’ position) with an appearance of objectivity but, at the end of the day, is subjective, relative, constantly changing, and therefore an illusion.

If these things be true, from whence comes this sense of immaterial realities that seemingly all humans have innately, namely a) consciousness b) truth [which your arguments require if they are "believable"] c) justice d) good and evil, e) beauty f) love, g) …. you get the idea. Surely these purported immaterial realities did not erupt from only physical properties. In other words, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. If any or all of your assertions about the nonexistence of God are true, then how can you know this objectively without at least committing to the existence of at least one immaterial reality, (“consciousness”)? Seems to me you can, at best, only state your preference; yet I “prefer” otherwise. Since I prefer otherwise, there is no basis to claim my preferences are objectively wrong, ill-informed, false, et al. unless you are committed to some of the aforementioned immaterial realities. And, your commitment to them entails belief in something beyond the physical, for which you have no ontological basis without a belief in God, who grounds their existence. If you admit at least “consciousness” and “truth” (to deny these is to commit the most basic intellectual error = self-refutation), then from whence do they arise?

P.S. Please, do call me “Paul” (my momma didn’t name me “Mr.” …. wink)


Arizona Atheist:

Hi Paul,

If these things be true, from whence comes this sense of immaterial realities that seemingly all humans have innately, namely a) consciousness b) truth [which your arguments require if they are "believable"] c) justice d) good and evil, e) beauty f) love, g) …. you get the idea. Surely these purported immaterial realities did not erupt from only physical properties. In other words, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. If any or all of your assertions about the nonexistence of God are true, then how can you know this objectively without at least committing to the existence of at least one immaterial reality, (“consciousness”)? Seems to me you can, at best, only state your preference; yet I “prefer” otherwise. Since I prefer otherwise, there is no basis to claim my preferences are objectively wrong, ill-informed, false, et al. unless you are committed to some of the aforementioned immaterial realities. And, your commitment to them entails belief in something beyond the physical, for which you have no ontological basis without a belief in God, who grounds their existence. If you admit at least “consciousness” and “truth” (to deny these is to commit the most basic intellectual error = self-refutation), then from whence do they arise?

I don’t understand why you’d think consciousness would have to be something immaterial. It’s true that science is just beginning to understand the brain and has a long ways to go, but as far as what we know so far, consciousness is nothing but a combination of various processes of the brain. There have even been books written on it, such as Daniel Dennett’s Consciousness Explained, unfortunately, I have a very long reading list and haven’t gotten very far in that one yet so I can’t give you a lot of detail, but consciousness seems to be the work of not one part of the brain, but many working together to create this state we call consciousness. Even still, just because something is currently unexplained doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a natural explanation.

Even more though, I do not understand why you argue that truth, justice, good and evil, beauty, and love are immaterial. Love is simply a combination of various chemicals that are released into the brain that gives you that euphoric feeling when you care deeply for someone. Beauty is simply an individuals’ subjective belief as to what is attractive; truth is simply something that is true and is corroborated by the actual state of things; good and evil are largely subjective, just as morality is. All of these things can easily be explained naturally without any need of religion or immaterialism.

So, by accepting all these things, consciousness included, doesn’t lead to any kind of contradiction. For all but one (so far at least) of the examples given each has a logical, verifiable naturalistic explanation.

Since you noted that you don’t care to debate is there anything you would like to simply discuss?

Thanks!

Mr. Adams:

Thanks, once again, for your contributions and invitation here.

Let’s discuss consciousness. Consider J. P. Moreland’s argument that consciousness consists of at least four features that are not accounted for by physical states of affairs.

"First, there is a raw qualitative feel — a “what it is like to have it” — to a mental state. For example, pain hurts. A physical state may cause pain, but the physical state itself can be completely described in the vocabulary of physics and chemistry, or in the commonsense vocabulary of the physical world. Being hurtful, however, is not describable in the vocabulary of any of these.

Second, many mental states have intentionality — “ofness” or “aboutness” — which is directed towards an object. A thought, for instance, is about the moon. But no physical state is about anything. The brain is a physical object, but a brain state cannot be about the moon any more than a rock or a cloud can be about the moon. Only a state of mind can be about the moon.

Third, mental states are internal, private and immediately accessible to the subject having them. A scientist can know more about my brain than I do. But I have direct knowledge of my mind which is not available to anyone else.

Fourth, mental states fail to have crucial features that characterize physical states. Unlike physical states, they have no spatial extension (it doesn’t make sense to ask how tall or wide someone’s thoughts are) and they have no location either (which is why it doesn’t make sense to ask where someone’s thoughts are). In general, mental states cannot be described using physical language."

Thoughts? Oh, but wait…the moment you offer your “thoughts” you enter the non-physical world. ;-)




Arizona Atheist:

Hi, I’m happy to discuss things with civil and kind individuals such as yourself since I’ve run into many..shall I say… jerks during my many discussions.

As I said, my knowledge of consciousness is slim at best but I’ll do my best here.

A thought, for instance, is about the moon. But no physical state is about anything. The brain is a physical object, but a brain state cannot be about the moon any more than a rock or a cloud can be about the moon. Only a state of mind can be about the moon.

The brain is similar to a computer in that in can process information and “think” about various things, just as a computer is not a math equation but it can “think” about them and solve them. There is nothing immaterial about that, just as there is nothing immaterial about a computer processing something.

A physical state may cause pain, but the physical state itself can be completely described in the vocabulary of physics and chemistry, or in the commonsense vocabulary of the physical world. Being hurtful, however, is not describable in the vocabulary of any of these.

I’m assuming he is referring to our feelings being hurt and how he describe how we feel and it’s not possible to describe this? I don’t see how, since we have words that describe these feelings we feel, such as happy, sad, etc. But feelings are based upon, to my limited knowledge, the chemicals in our heads. Chemical imbalances can cause emotional fluctuations so it’s clear emotions are tied to the chemicals in our brains, just as the feeling we call “love” is caused by a release of various hormones and other chemicals.

mental states are internal, private and immediately accessible to the subject having them. A scientist can know more about my brain than I do. But I have direct knowledge of my mind which is not available to anyone else.

Actually, that’s not true. Pretty cool, huh? ; )

Clearly, there is something ..for the lack of a better word ‘mechanical’ about our brains since a computer can “read” it and we know where these thoughts are stored. There is also the technology that allows people who cannot move to control a computer and other electronics by thought alone.

Unlike physical states, they have no spatial extension (it doesn’t make sense to ask how tall or wide someone’s thoughts are) and they have no location either (which is why it doesn’t make sense to ask where someone’s thoughts are). In general, mental states cannot be described using physical language.

Actually, as one of the above articles I cited said, the hippocampus is “believed to be most heavily involved in episodic memory”, even though various parts of the brain are also involved. With brain imaging we can target where certain thoughts and whatnot come from.

Again, we don’t know a lot about the brain but the evidence suggests that consciousness and, yes, even our thoughts are not in any way immaterial. They are simply products of our brain, just as computing cycles of a computer are caused by mechanical processes. I don’t think you’d argue your computer has any immaterial properties would you, and it’s the same with the brain. It’s just our “bio-computer”, which was crafted by natural selection, not humans, is not the greatest and explains the many faults that we have with it, since it’s not nearly as reliable as a simple computer made by humans.

Hopefully I answered your questions well enough since my knowledge is pretty limited.

Mr. Adams:



Thanks for your kind words. It’s truly sad there are so many theists who are “jerks.” I wish I could say I don’t know any, but….. In fact, I’m sure that I’ve fallen into that camp from time to time.

Since you mentioned civility and kindness vis-a-vis being offended, hurt, disappointed, (or what have you) by theistic “jerks,” I’ll use that to make my point in reply. That I can measure with instruments the physical/material brain states you experience when someone offends you is no argument against the immateriality of consciousness. It merely points to the interaction between mind and body (with thanks to Descartes!). Allow me to explain.

The mind interacts only with the brain (nothing external enters the mind without first passing through the brain). A material event causally stimulates the senses (e.g., when I hear someone speaking in another room or see the desk in a room when the light is turned on). From a chain of physical causes the material event leads the brain to process it, which creates an awareness in the mind of the physical event. The mind, then, being affected by the brain, acts on the brain that in turn affects the body, which reacts accordingly (we “hear” or “see” or “feel”). For all material/external events, therefore, the brain is the link or bridge between mind (metaphysical) and matter (physical). Yet it is the “person” (that deepest metaphysical subject underneath and behind the physical “you”) who becomes “aware” via consciousness of a physical event. [Consider the hand (= mind) that animates a glove (= body). The glove does not animate the hand. My material presence is merely a vessel for housing my soul/mind/consciousness.]

To complicate things and to be fair to Descartes, it’s a two-way street. While a physical event can cause a mental event/awareness, it could go the other way, e.g., dreaming, imagining, remembering can cause one to sweat or experience increased heart rate. Though the mind “wanders” and “dreams” and the brain is involved as a vessel to the body, it is the mind/consciousness that perceives the dream, causing the brain’s impulses to communicate to the body, yet it is the mind which “knows.”

Similarly, it is the person who feels loved, not the chemicals that cause the feeling. That I can know there are other minds (such as yours as you read this) does not discount that your brain is engaged as a kind of bridge between your consciousness and the thoughts you’re apprehending. Of course a computer can churn out 1s and 0s (I understand MIT is working on a trinary system as well) that collectively comprise code to imitate human responses. But this does not discount the notion that “information” itself is a metaphysical reality composed of a relationship between a string of letters and the ideas they communicate to a subject. For example, the characters “*#)C84&L”!@;” mean nothing, whereas the characters “content” conveys a thought (even when translated in other languages) that only humans can understand. A computer sees “content” as a series of 1s and 0s but does not “know” it as a thought. Only minds can “think” and only humans can “know” in their “knower” because they have a mind that is conscious. Simply because I can monitor the corresponding brain states you’re having while reading this post does not mean you are merely a machine taking in a bunch of characters and assigning meaning to it based upon learned social convention.

At the end of the day, my friend, I would encourage you to consider whether or not your worldview, and particularly your view of the human species, is existentially viable. Can you honestly live with the notion that love is merely a chemical emission? I doubt your significant other would find that very appealing!


Arizona Atheist:

Thanks for your kind words. It’s truly sad there are so many theists who are “jerks.” I wish I could say I don’t know any, but….. In fact, I’m sure that I’ve fallen into that camp from time to time.

Since you mentioned civility and kindness vis-a-vis being offended, hurt, disappointed, (or what have you) by theistic “jerks,” I’ll use that to make my point in reply. That I can measure with instruments the physical/material brain states you experience when someone offends you is no argument against the immateriality of consciousness.


You’re very welcome. In regards to myself, I’ve also been guilty of letting my emotions get to me in discussions a few times, only because the last few people I’ve tried discussing things with I get talked down to and insulted on a continuous basis while trying to have a discussion. So, I can understand that. People can only take so much until they lash out at their abusers.

It seems we’ve gone off a slightly different path here. I gave you reasons why thoughts are not immaterial and you respond with this mind-brain duality. The fact that scientists can “read” a person’s thoughts was simply an answer to your argument that thoughts are themselves immaterial, which I think those facts throughly refuted that claim. This mind-brain duality is an illusion. Everything we experience comes from the brain itself.

The mind interacts only with the brain (nothing external enters the mind without first passing through the brain). A material event causally stimulates the senses (e.g., when I hear someone speaking in another room or see the desk in a room when the light is turned on). From a chain of physical causes the material event leads the brain to process it, which creates an awareness in the mind of the physical event. The mind, then, being affected by the brain, acts on the brain that in turn affects the body, which reacts accordingly (we “hear” or “see” or “feel”). For all material/external events, therefore, the brain is the link or bridge between mind (metaphysical) and matter (physical). Yet it is the “person” (that deepest metaphysical subject underneath and behind the physical “you”) who becomes “aware” via consciousness of a physical event. [Consider the hand (= mind) that animates a glove (= body). The glove does not animate the hand. My material presence is merely a vessel for housing my soul/mind/consciousness.]

To complicate things and to be fair to Descartes, it’s a two-way street. While a physical event can cause a mental event/awareness, it could go the other way, e.g., dreaming, imagining, remembering can cause one to sweat or experience increased heart rate. Though the mind “wanders” and “dreams” and the brain is involved as a vessel to the body, it is the mind/consciousness that perceives the dream, causing the brain’s impulses to communicate to the body, yet it is the mind which “knows.”


Again, these experiences are all sensed because of your sense organs and are processed by your brain, and nothing else. Your senses pick up on things in your environment and your brain processes that information, sending electrical impulses down your arm, hand, etc. in order to interact with your environment. Allow me to quote Dennett from Consciousness Explained when he is talking about why mind-brain dualism is falsified by basic laws of physics:

“The conscious perception of the arrow [discussing Descartes's diagram explaining the mind-brain connection] occurs only after the brain has somehow transmitted its message to the mind, and the person’s finger can point to the arrow only after the mind commands the body. How, precisely, does the information get transmitted from pineal gland to mind? Since we don’t have the faintest idea (yet) what properties mind stuff has, we can’t even guess (yet) how it might be affected by physical processes emanating somehow from the brain, so let’s ignore those upbound signals for the time being, and concentrate on the return signals; the directives from mind to brain. [...] No physical energy or mass is associated with them. How, then, do they get to make a difference to what happens in the brain cells they must affect, if the mind is to have any influence over the body? A fundamental principle of physics is that any change in the trajectory of any physical entity is an acceleration requiring the expenditure of energy that accounts for the physical impossibility of ‘perpetual motion machines,’ and the same principle is apparently violated by dualism.” (34-35)

With that, it seems the rest of your arguments proposing some kind of dualism have been falsified by science.

Can you honestly live with the notion that love is merely a chemical emission? I doubt your significant other would find that very appealing!

Sure, I can live perfectly fine with the fact that love is simply a chemical reaction. It doesn’t affect the love I have for my girlfriend in anyway. It’s just how I feel. The fact that I am aware of what’s causing it doesn’t change that in the slightest. And, since you mentioned my significant other, she knows about that as well and it also doesn’t affect her. It’s like, say… driving a car. We all know (to some degree or another) how a car works but we don’t obsess over it. We just get in our vehicles and drive. Just like loving…we know what causes it, but we don’t consciously think, “these chemicals are making me feel this way”, we just love and enjoy each others’ company. If that makes any sense. The fact that the cause is something mundane doesn’t take away the specialness of the feelings that are produced. Or to put it another way, take pain. I am aware of what causes it, in that it’s simply nerve impulses being sent back and forth from the injured area to my brain through my nervous system, but this doesn’t make the pain I’m feeling any different. It’s still pain, something unpleasant. It’s basically natural selection’s way of getting you to avoid doing certain things so as to prolong your existence. The same with love, I think, since it often leads to ‘love making’ and offspring. Again, just because I understand the mechanisms (more or less) doesn’t change the sensations I feel at all. The only difference is I have a conscious understanding of what’s happening. Hopefully I explained myself well enough.

Mr. Adams:



Okay…Per Plantinga (see my post here), if it’s possible that something is true of me that is not true of my material state, then it follows that I am not my material substance. Thus, dualism follows. Note carefully Plantinga’s precise explanation regarding what is “possible.”

It seems to me you assume a priori that a) all of human experience terminates in the brain and b) the the senses reliably transmit information, which by definition cannot be more than mere electrical impulses and chemical exchanges arranged in certain learned/shared conventions. Given Plantinga’s argument above and the tenuous nature of our senses being wholly reliable, your case for humans being solely material is dubious.

Finally, your last paragraph is pregnant with the personal pronoun “I” which, per your anthropology, really means your material being. There really is no “I” behind or under your assertions, nor is there a “mind” making the assertions; only a brain that oozes. [Ironically, hard-core materialists are just a few steps away from the Buddhist notion anatman (= no self).]


Arizona Atheist:

Hi Paul, good morning. I didn’t see a “reply” button on your message so I just replied to my last message.

Okay…Per Plantinga (see my post here), if it’s possible that something is true of me that is not true of my material state, then it follows that I am not my material substance. Thus, dualism follows. Note carefully Plantinga’s precise explanation regarding what is “possible.”

That was an interesting video, thanks for sharing, but Plantinga doesn’t make any sense. Like the scientist was continually saying, it’s about what is true in reality, not what is “possible”. If there were two “you’s”, like a clone for example, then both would be conscious and you would both be “you”. It’s not as if one body is conscious and another not. That makes no sense what he said because it’s nothing but a thought experiment. An interesting one, but it leads to a false conclusion. Based upon the evidence we have about the brain, which you’ve yet to give a satisfactory answer or rebuttal to, the brain itself creates consciousness and the laws of physics rules out any possibility of dualism, as quoted by Dennett.

It seems to me you assume a priori that a) all of human experience terminates in the brain and b) the the senses reliably transmit information, which by definition cannot be more than mere electrical impulses and chemical exchanges arranged in certain learned/shared conventions. Given Plantinga’s argument above and the tenuous nature of our senses being wholly reliable, your case for humans being solely material is dubious.

As I noted above, I’m basing my argument upon scientific facts; I’m not just assuming this premise is true and starting from there. According to the evidence I’ve given, my premise is true. Once a person is brain dead that’s it. If there is any life after death no one has come back to tell us. Those who argue that near-death experiences are proof of afterlife don’t seem to understand that this phenomenon is easily explained though natural processes. In fact, these experiences ( NDE’s, OBE’s, etc.) can be easily recreated and induced by stimulation of certain parts of the brain which goes a long ways to proving many, if not all, paranormal events are brain based (Shermer, How We Believe, 241-244).

Finally, your last paragraph is pregnant with the personal pronoun “I” which, per your anthropology, really means your material being. There really is no “I” behind or under your assertions, nor is there a “mind” making the assertions; only a brain that oozes. [Ironically, hard-core materialists are just a few steps away from the Buddhist notion anatman (= no self).]

The brain creates this experience of “I”; the brain is self-aware so I see myself as me, just as you see yourself as “you”. And because of that, of course I’d answer your question with “I” since it was “I” you asked of my opinion about love being nothing but chemicals. : )

Since it seems we’ve reached an impasse; neither one of us will seem to accept the others’ premise, and you’ve still failed to give an answer to any of the evidence I’ve provided, I think the next step would be to leave it at that. Thank you for sharing your views and the video was very interesting. I hadn’t ever heard Plantinga speak before. He seems like a nice guy. I don’t know, I just got that feeling as I watched the video.

Thank you again for the discussion. It was fun and interesting. Take care!

Update - 4-22-10

Well, Paul did reply, though not to me. He replied to another commenter and still could not get it into his head that I was not arguing based on any form of assumptions. He said,

April 21, 2010 at 9:56 pm

Thanks for dropping by, Sentinel. Appreciate your remarks and will take a look at your blog.

Am familiar with the Haldane quote. Thank you. Since my opponent seemed to hold fast an a priori commitment to materialism and the scientific method as the only means of discovering truth, then it seemed fruitless to continue the discussion. We were talking pass one another more than growing in understanding. Sadly, Arizona Atheist did not see that “truth” is not found in a lab or measured in a beaker.


Again, I in no way had a "prior commitment" to anything. As I said during our discussion I based by argument on evidence, not some "assumption." It's sad he couldn't see that, but perhaps the science I used to back up my claim was just too much for his beliefs, and so he resorted to the old, "faith card", and simply ignored the evidence, while assuring himself that it's OK he does this because 'Arizona Atheist has his own assumptions too, so why can't I?' If this was his (if even subconscious) reasoning, it would be utterly, absolutely false. And it also shows his hypocrisy because of his "prior commitment" to immaterialism, even though it hasn't got a shred of evidence for it.

As far as what's "true", scientific experiments done over and over again that give the same results must be based on truth, and be reliable, or else the experiments would not yield such consistent results. That's how I know what I say is true. It's based upon the evidence. How do I know theists' beliefs are false? Because there is a massive amount of evidence against it. If their beliefs were even remotely true, science would confirm them at some point, but that hasn't happened. Their beliefs would also be more logically consistent, but again, they're not. That's how I know I'm right and he is wrong. It's too bad he couldn't have grasped at least some of that truth.
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Sunday, April 11, 2010

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For those looking for my review of The Making of an Atheist and entered from the following web address...

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As I was writing the review and making some final touches I forgot to change the posting time and date (among a few other goofs; I decided to delete the whole thing and redo the post). Instead of being posted as the most current post, it ended up getting stuck back with posts that were a week or so old. I'm sorry for any confusion, but the review is up and can be found at the following address:

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