Introduction
I have blog posts dedicated to why I became an atheist and an anarchist, but I've never explained in much detail the thought process that lead me to anarchism. I've chosen to do that now.
Nothing But Doubt
In early 2005 I had just gotten out of major surgery and a friend stopped by to see how I was doing. He handed me a copy of Every Man and Woman an Island: The Individual Human Being as Prime in the Universe, by Robert Clapp. During that time there were too many distractions to read a book so I set it aside until it was time for me to go home.Once I got home, each night before bed time, I read bits and pieces of the book over a few week period. At this time I hadn't yet met Bob. I wouldn't meet him for close to a year later. As I read his book I was horrified by the numerous stories of police brutality and other examples of government stupidity. Religion is discussed a little in the beginning of the book but is quickly dispatched with. I recall chuckling as he insulted the Pope.
Bob discussed his philosophy beginning by explaining his first principle, Prime, and continuing to other subjects, such as economics and politics, and how each related back to his first principle. He discussed a variety of subjects ranging from history, philosophy, and science, and explained how there are no gods and no need for any ultimate authority, whether god or man.
During this time half of that went over my head. I was already beginning to doubt religion during this time, however, I didn't realize that there was another form of indoctrination I hadn't yet shaken off. All of Bob's explanations about what would replace government completely went over my head. It didn't connect whatsoever. I agreed with his condemnation of police brutality and his complaints about government bungling things. However, his discussions about the institutions and economic processes that would replace the bloated government did not get processed in my brain. For some reason it didn't register that these institutions could replace government. In my mind at the time government had to be there to make sure violence didn't break out, that everyone had clean water, roads, and all the other functions government is currently responsible for. Because of this belief my eyes (and brain) completely glossed over his evidence.
A little over a year later I wanted to begin lifting weights so I could better my physical self in order to become a better martial artist. One of my instructors recommend their personal trainer, Bob Clapp, who I'd heard about over the years. He was a long time friend and trainer to another friend and martial arts instructor of mine. All I knew about Bob was that he was in his 70's, was still in excellent shape, that he was a very good trainer, and he really did not like government or religion. Even though I had read and enjoyed his book prior to my discussions with Bob I did not understand his first principle and doubted the validity of anarchism. Over the span of the next year much of what was said in the book I allowed to drift from my memory.
I made an appointment to begin weight training with Bob and for a few months we didn't talk about much, he just took me through my workouts. Then one day I thought I'd tell him that I had read his book and really enjoyed it and how I agreed with a lot of it. He was very appreciative of my praise. It was at this moment when Bob and I began to discuss a variety of things: religion, philosophy in general, government, science, the science of weight lifting, and especially his philosophy. Over the years sometimes we would talk so much during my hour long session I'd miss half of my workout because we would begin discussing whatever subject that came up at that moment. This was also the time that I can say that we started to become friends and he became a mentor to me.I like to think that he not only gave me the tools to improve my body but also my mind. He recommended numerous books for me to read. For history he recommended Will Durant's enormous series called The Story of Civilization. He recommended other books on politics and several anarchist thinkers who I also read, such as Emma Goldman and Lysander Spooner. Their words resonated in me greatly. I agreed very much with their pronouncements of freedom and equality and their criticisms of government. However, I still believed that we needed government for so many things! What would happen without government!? It was unthinkable!
The Flood Gates Open
Prior to this I had never read very widely. I had hundreds of books on martial arts, eastern philosophy, a little psychology, and Buddhism, but history or science? I didn't know jack about hardly any of it. I was familiar with the basics of evolution from my research into the creationism and evolution debacle, but that was the extent of my scientific knowledge at that point in time. After meeting Bob it opened up my intellectual curiosity and my thirst for knowledge.
I began to research anarchism extensively, along with other subjects, trying to find out how realistic this view actually was. I read more books by anarchist thinkers but mostly all I found were numerous theories but no concrete evidence that anarchism could be a workable alternative. I was still skeptical.
Then over a period of a several months it hit me. I realized something. I came to see how the same arguments Christians use to defend their religion from criticism were the exact same kinds of arguments Statists use to defend government. This was the first time I started to believe that anarchism just might be possible. If these arguments for government failed, just as they do for the existence of god and the truth of religion, then what foundation is there for government? I reasoned that it would be illogical for the same set of arguments to be valid in the case of government, but not religion. At this point my doubts began to shrink.
I kept doing more research and after a few years came to the realization that all of the justifications for government are flawed. Every single one. I discovered valid alternatives to the state that had real-world equivalents and this fact sealed the deal for me. Not only were the concepts and principles of anarchism logical and moral, but I found that they were also practical. I had found the empirical evidence was looking for. It was during this time that I became an anarchist.
You've Got a Bad Case of Intellectual Dishonesty
I enjoy debate. It was through this process that helped confirm both my atheist and my anarchist views. Through debate you can see first hand the arguments used by actual proponents of either view. You can also see something else: their emotional reactions to the facts you present.
Having your belief system torn down by facts is not a fun process to go through. Whether you are a statist or theist it doesn't matter. Likely since childhood these individuals have been brought up in these belief systems to obey these higher authorities; that they are necessary for the existence of mankind. Atheists are lucky. They've shaken off half of the indoctrination but still fight tooth and nail to deny the other form of worship and authoritarianism: Statism. [1]
Just as many theists get defensive and lash out at you, so do statists when their views are threatened. I've experienced this from both camps and from my vantage point of looking outside in at both of these beliefs I see the similarities. I see the emotional reactions that occur when statists and theists are confronted with the facts that atheists and anarchists present. Like me, when I first read Bob's book his arguments didn't even register inside my brain. I imagine that is the same for most statists as well, since most times my arguments seem to be ignored as my opponents proceed to repeat their original arguments that I had already disproved earlier in a discussion. This is why it seems as if they are purposefully ignoring my arguments, but perhaps they're not. Perhaps the facts I present are just not registering, just as they didn't for me in the beginning. Rather than outright intellectual dishonesty it could be a pure case of cognitive dissonance.
Continuing Education
Vary rarely do I watch the mainstream media any more. I only watch it for local news and to see what propaganda the government (and their pet news organizations) are spilling out into millions of homes. I've found that independent media does a much better job of covering the lies, abuses, and distortions of facts the government is responsible for, if they cover these stories at all. Often times they are given very little, if any, coverage.
Now I mostly read history by historians who aren't afraid to tell history like it really was, like Kenneth C. Davis, or especially Howard Zinn. For my politics I enjoy many of Noam Chomsky's insights and I watch Democracy Now! daily.
The scales have been wiped completely from my eyes. I view history and the present with a sense of astonishment but also fear for the future. I see how much things have changed, but at the same time (sadly) how much has stayed the same. How far will the government continue to go in violating our rights? How much more will they invade our privacy? Will the majority ever come to the same or similar conclusions I came to, and when might that be? What would it take to convince a 'dyed-in-the-wool statist-head,' to slightly tweak one of Richard Dawkins' most famous phrases, that anarchism is a practical alternative? Likely, it's similar to religious indoctrination where non-believers make little head way in convincing believers no matter how much evidence you throw at them.
As I type there are numerous protests taking place and I am happy the majority are finally waking up, at least to a degree, but where it will lead I don't know. All I do know is that if the people do not scrape the scales from their eyes as I did they will be right back where they are right now at some point in the future, just as all of the past revolutions and protests throughout the history of this country have led to very little real change over the years. The rich and powerful still control the vast majority of land and wealth, they still neglect the poor and in many cases minorities, and peoples' rights continue to be trampled underfoot. I fear the solution to all of this – anarchism – is something people will unfortunately overlook.
Conclusion
At this point in my intellectual journey I do firmly believe that anarchism is clearly a possible and worthwhile goal. However, will this state of things ever be realized, either through a government collapse or an over-taking by the people? This I cannot answer with certainty but I do believe with most individuals' indoctrination fully in place anarchy will not be achieved through human action, but more likely from government failure. On the other hand who knows what the future will bring...
1. I use the term “worship” because of the way in which statists swoon over government; are reliant upon it, and believe (falsely) that nothing can be done without it. This is much like many religionists' god, who they believe will comfort them in times of worry and fear, and will do what needs to be done. Research has even proven this to be true. In both cases, both groups have essentially surrendered their ability to self-rely on themselves and their fellow human beings in favor of some pipe dream that will never materialize.
Thank you for a well-told story. I would draw the distinction between theism and statism that the latter concerns an existing arrangement, while the former concerns various fantasies.
ReplyDeleteAnyhow, if one is so intently convinced of anarchism, why not live in an anarchist community? I am sure that in the wilds of Alaska or Canada, such a thing could be established. The object lessons of anarchism are extremely thin on the ground, I believe for good reason, but in any case, one should wish to and be able to live one's creed in this case.
I wonder what you think of the occupy movement. They are in some ways anarchistic, foreswearing leaders, which I think will make them ineffective. Yet they have also cultivated some methods of internal semi-consensus governance... do you view those as consistent with anarchism? What internal governance would you recommend, if any?
Hi Burk,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment. While that is a difference between the two the fact is that even though us atheists know it's all nonsense, to theists they truly believe they are interacting with another being, and believe it's real and act on those beliefs. That doesn't really matter though because my examples don't depend on god being real or not. It's the human actions that result and the bad arguments in favor of both theism and statism.
Why don't I want to go live in an anarchy? Well, for one, I don't know of any current anarchys to move to. Of course, if one is ever developed I'd certainly consider it. Second, if there was currently one to move to it would most likely be in another country and I am horrible at foreign languages. Third, all my friends and family are in the states.
”Yet they have also cultivated some methods of internal semi-consensus governance... do you view those as consistent with anarchism? What internal governance would you recommend, if any?”
I gave my opinions about the occupy movement here already.
It is essentially an anarchist-like gathering because there is no central authority, but everyone is cooperating and organizing quite well. I kind of feel these movements are a blow to the argument that one needs a central authority for peace and organization. Of course, the fact is that these people have all come together because of a single reason, which aids in their cooperation. If you take an entire society whose people do not all share one goal there is going to be conflicts, which is why I propose privatized courts, security, and contracts to help better organize and settle disputes.
What do you mean by “internal governance”?
Arizona Atheist,
DeleteDo you consider yourself a left-anarchist, in the tradition of intellectuals such as Kropotkin, Bakunin, Pannekoek, Malatesta, etc., or a right-anarchist, like Rothbard, Friedman, Herman Hoppe, etc.?
I am a left-anarchist, hence I see the need for states in this epoch of history: to provide a defense--albeit a flimsy and rapidly eroding one--against private power. Once the tyranny of private corporations is dissolved, then, I think, the state should also be dismantled and replaced with institutions more democratically accountable and controllable by local communities.
Hi mojo,
DeleteThanks for the comment.
I am what you would consider a “right” anarchist. I agree with a lot of what Rothbard says. I've just in the last few months read a few of his main works. If you're interested, I've outlined my views here: The Tao of Arizona Atheist
Arizona Atheist,
DeleteAh, OK. I have skim read some of those pages. Question: how do you consider private property to be a more free arrangement than public property? After all, if I "own" something, then, that means every single person in the entire universe is coercively prohibited from using that thing as they please...except for me. On the other hand, if something (e.g. a factory) is owned by everybody, then that coercive restriction does not apply. The only way to get around that argument is to assume that individuals have a Natural Right to private property. But you cannot argue for unlimited private property rights based on its purported tendency to maximize liberty. It has to be some other kind of argument, such as the self-ownership idea put forth by Nozick. I think that his logic is fallacious and unconvincing, but that is a topic for another time.
Hasta la Victoria Siempre!
Hi mojo,
DeleteThe reason private property is valued in my philosophy is because it allows one to have their privacy and their own space to do as they please. This certainly doesn't prohibit anyone else from using said property, as long as the owner allows it. This is why private property “maximizes liberty.” Without it, someone could simply come into your home and take your food, or sleep in your bed, and you can't say anything about it. This is what logically follows from socialism, and I believe this is what would ultimately lead to a lack of freedom for people, because others would interfere with their lives (and there would ultimately be no privacy in this arrangement either). This would be less likely to happen with property because it would define boundaries that would allow places of solitude where someone can go to be undisturbed and be free to do whatever they wish without hindrance from others.
Hopefully that helps you understand where I'm coming from.
@A.Atheist
Delete[Private property maximises liberty because] without it, someone could simply come into your home and take your food, or sleep in your bed, and you can't say anything about it.
Well, technically, without private property, no-one would be coming into "your" home; they would be coming into "a" home which you happen to be dwelling in.
Moreover, you are attempting to show how private property increases liberty by appealing to very specific, concrete examples. The problem with relying solely on this line of reasoning is that I can easily think of concrete, specific examples that demonstrate the opposite. Imagine a society where all the means of production are owned and controlled by a wealthy clique of noble oligarchs who lord over the peasant masses. In this case, private property rights are serving as nothing more than a contemptuous excuse to repress the liberty of working people. The fact that the oligarchs "own" everything means that, if a poor peasant attempts to use the means of production in a way that makes the oligarchs frown and tsk-tsk (e.g. steals a bunch of product to feed some sick and hungry people, or steals a bunch of vaccine to innoculate impoverished citizens from disease), men with guns (either from the State or a private police force) will show up at the peasant's house and reprimand her severely. That does not seem like freedom to me. That seems like excessive use of force to uphold a wicked and unjust social contract.
Yes, certain cases of private property increase privacy, but that is only if you own the right kind of private property. If I am a homeless, poor person who owns nothing but the clothes on my back, that does not guarantee me the freedom from the snooping of others to conduct my private affairs. On the other hand, if I owned a house, it would be different. Privacy depends on what I own, which presupposes that I have the ability to buy those things, which presupposes that I have the money in the first place. Therefore, if unlimited private property rights are kosher; and massive inequalities of wealth arise from massive inequalities in natural talent, ability, and ambition; it follows that unlimited property rights skew the enjoyments of privacy inexorably in the favour of the wealthy.
As a socialist anarchist, I am not opposed to private property in all cases. I am opposed to the productive resources and workplaces being approporiated by a tiny group of elite noblemen who lord their economic power over the rest, even if that process comes about purely through shrewd businesscraft and tactful market games. I am opposed to the grotesquely anti-libertarian inversions of the modern-day capitalist workplace. In these institutions, you are told what to wear, exactly what time to show up, how to act towards your co-workers, when you can go for lunch, what your surroundings can look like, what you can say to your boss, when you can smoke, when you can go on long service leave, and so on. This is Bolshevism-Lite in the workplace; yet, we are told by the media and Randian intellectuals that this is actually pure freedom. Orwell rolls in his grave.
You mentioned that a consistent application of socialist anarchist principles leads to the conclusion that all private property is evil. I disagree. Unlike its highly axiomatic individualistic counterpart, socialist anarchism tends to be based on a utilitarian ethic, rather than Natural Rights. It depends what the community, voluntarily coming together, decides. Different communities will come to different decisions about how to produce, distribute, and allocate resources.
Hi mojo,
DeleteWell, technically, without private property, no-one would be coming into "your" home; they would be coming into "a" home which you happen to be dwelling in.
Essentially what you say is true, but my point was ultimately about the lack of privacy and freedom in a socialist society and why that occurs. Your argument pretty much concedes my point.
Moreover, you are attempting to show how private property increases liberty by appealing to very specific, concrete examples. The problem with relying solely on this line of reasoning is that I can easily think of concrete, specific examples that demonstrate the opposite. Imagine a society where all the means of production are owned and controlled by a wealthy clique of noble oligarchs who lord over the peasant masses. In this case, private property rights are serving as nothing more than a contemptuous excuse to repress the liberty of working people. The fact that the oligarchs "own" everything means that, if a poor peasant attempts to use the means of production in a way that makes the oligarchs frown and tsk-tsk (e.g. steals a bunch of product to feed some sick and hungry people, or steals a bunch of vaccine to innoculate impoverished citizens from disease), men with guns (either from the State or a private police force) will show up at the peasant's house and reprimand her severely. That does not seem like freedom to me. That seems like excessive use of force to uphold a wicked and unjust social contract.
I would agree that someone living on the streets taking food for themselves and/or family should not be punished and should instead be helped, however, this can be accomplished through capitalism. Organizations (like we have even now) can spring up to help homeless people. I agree with Murray Rothbard when he says that we should concentrate on helping people to help themselves, rather than simply making it easy to give handouts to any who ask because that often encourages laziness and then everyone else ends up supporting someone who could easily support themselves. So, by making long-term assistance harder for those who can clearly make it on their own and saving it for those who really are in need, like the disabled, elderly, or someone who is mightily struggling to get a job but is unable to at the moment, is a way to encourage people to help themselves and reduces the amount of money spent on lazy people taking advantage of others.
Cont.
Yes, certain cases of private property increase privacy, but that is only if you own the right kind of private property. If I am a homeless, poor person who owns nothing but the clothes on my back, that does not guarantee me the freedom from the snooping of others to conduct my private affairs. On the other hand, if I owned a house, it would be different. Privacy depends on what I own, which presupposes that I have the ability to buy those things, which presupposes that I have the money in the first place. Therefore, if unlimited private property rights are kosher; and massive inequalities of wealth arise from massive inequalities in natural talent, ability, and ambition; it follows that unlimited property rights skew the enjoyments of privacy inexorably in the favour of the wealthy.
DeleteI agree this is a bit of an issue with capitalism. However, two of the biggest problems surrounding the lack of ability for people to get jobs is the stigma about those who are homeless and the minimum wage. I would like to see that stigma disappear and volunteer groups to take people in and help them to get on their feet (see the previous response as well). From what I've read it appears to me, also, that the minimum wage keeps people from getting jobs (like those who badly need them, like the many unskilled laborers) because the minimum wage is often more than an employer is willing to pay someone with little to no experience, and this actually harms people looking for jobs. Whereas, a wage on the free market will vary depending on a persons' skill level, and may be lower than another, but at least they get their foot in the door and can gain a rise in pay over time. I believe this is better than not being able to get a job at all and not having any income.
As a socialist anarchist, I am not opposed to private property in all cases. I am opposed to the productive resources and workplaces being approporiated by a tiny group of elite noblemen who lord their economic power over the rest, even if that process comes about purely through shrewd businesscraft and tactful market games. I am opposed to the grotesquely anti-libertarian inversions of the modern-day capitalist workplace. In these institutions, you are told what to wear, exactly what time to show up, how to act towards your co-workers, when you can go for lunch, what your surroundings can look like, what you can say to your boss, when you can smoke, when you can go on long service leave, and so on. This is Bolshevism-Lite in the workplace; yet, we are told by the media and Randian intellectuals that this is actually pure freedom. Orwell rolls in his grave.
I agree with you completely on this point. I can't see why on a free market such businesses will not come along who have relaxed policies that attract more people and drive the control freaks out of business.
Cont.
You mentioned that a consistent application of socialist anarchist principles leads to the conclusion that all private property is evil. I disagree. Unlike its highly axiomatic individualistic counterpart, socialist anarchism tends to be based on a utilitarian ethic, rather than Natural Rights. It depends what the community, voluntarily coming together, decides. Different communities will come to different decisions about how to produce, distribute, and allocate resources.
DeleteI agree with your idea about people needing to come together to solve their problems. I am highly critical of this nanny state that has come about because people are too damn lazy to want to do things on their own. They want government to do it all. This makes people lazy and it gives government more unnecessary power over everyone’s' lives, and creates the issues we're now facing with increased government meddling in everyone’s' lives.
However, the reason I said socialist principles lead to people coming and taking what they want is because socialism is the belief that no one owns anything. Therefore, I believe that your belief in limited property is a contradiction. If one truly adheres to socialism and no one owns anything, it logically follows that slavery is allowed because no one even owns their own body and something like the forced vaccinations that you condemned earlier would then be “moral” under socialism.
Thanks for the interesting discussion. I look forward to your reply. Also, sorry for the long delay. I've been very busy lately.
AA-
ReplyDeleteI guess what I was trying to get at was that if anarchy were so natural, then there would be many spontaneous communities with this character even here in the US. Some rural town might have a casual government with which amount to none at all, and one would be generally left alone.
In some ways, this is not an uncommon situation. Yet, when anything serious needs to get done, of a public goods character, then even the smallest communities (Amish, Texan, what have you) start setting up governments so that common objects can be attained with the consent of the citizens and via due process, but without needing absolute consensus.
I don't think this is due to brainwashing and indoctrination. It couldn't have happened the same way in thousands of communities, given our diversity in political thought. That is partly why I bring up the occupy folks and their internal governance- i.e. the rules they have come up with to make decisions and govern themselves. As you say, as a single-issue casual entity, their needs are less than those of a general community of citizens. But even they have their officers (i.e. facilitators) who essentially run things, though with a great deal of deference to the membership. Soon they may even have their own police, to ferret out and exile provocateurs and other extremists who don't adhere to the program.
In the end, I think you are blinded by some kind of police and state antipathy which is understandable, but not terribly productive. Waiting for someone else to found the anarchist community of your dreams seems to pass the buck, when you could be printing your own in your own community of one, two, or however many want to go in with the idea. When Jews, Muslims, or Mormons find themselves in a gentile community, they promptly make up their own sub-communities, complete, I dare say, with judicial bodies by which they adjudicate their social and theological disputes- a government, in short.
This is not to hold them up as exemplars of clear thinking, but simply of dedication to embodying their communal vision, whatever it is. My point is that, contrary to the propaganda you seem to be reading, ("... none of them failed because of their anarchism; all ceased to exist entirely because of external factors."), anarchy is indeed the reason they failed, and keep failing, because it is fundamentally impractical for any group larger than an extended family. The proof is in the lack of pudding.
You say you study history (I do as well), but I think it's history more than anything else that proves the inadequacies of anarchism. How is it you are able to see anarchy as more than just the power vacuum before a new regime? If you think all it takes is government collapse, why has it not happened when any of the other countless governments have collapsed?
ReplyDeleteI am familiar with the thought experiment of "enlightened anarchy," whereby all people are inexplicably (almost magically) capable of self-rule and self-regulation, but I think what anarchy has lacked (and what makes it the laughing stock of most forms of government) is the road map by which humanity actually can attain such a state whereby government is made obsolete. Yes, I can imagine such a situation... just as I can imagine riding a unicorn over the moon.
I don't like being hungry, but telling myself there is no need for food doesn't mean I won't have to eat tomorrow. If you can point to empirical and scientifically verified proof that even less regulation (let alone complete anarchy) is ideal, I might see the appeal. As it is, I see anarchy as wishful thinking by those who imagine the only thing holding them back from greatness is not themselves, but some amorphous state that is largely uninvolved in their life.
On another note, you should check out the anarchist/skepticism site I post to, Skeptical Eye (through my profile). You'd find some sympathetic thinkers there.
I should have reread that. The only thing holding you back may not be yourself, it may be private individuals. I am confident it's not "the state," though. If it is, do share your tale.
ReplyDeleteHi Burk,
ReplyDelete”I guess what I was trying to get at was that if anarchy were so natural, then there would be many spontaneous communities with this character even here in the US. Some rural town might have a casual government with which amount to none at all [...]”
I don't believe this is very sound reasoning. The reason is just because something is more prevalent than something else doesn't mean it's the most “natural” or that it's less fuctional. As I've demonstrated over and over anarchy has worked several times throughout history. For example, let's take religion. I don't think you'd find the argument that because religion is the dominant belief atheism is wrong, so why would the same hold for government? It's not logical.
Yes, there is much diversity in political thought, however, there is something that is always assumed regardless of the political beliefs of a group. They believe (quite wrongly) that a form of centralized government is needed for X,Y and Z. That's the basic assumption that pervades nearly every political belief system. It's like theistic religions. Religions that have this assumption about god and assume he/she is real are more prevalent but that doesn't mean there is a god.
But there is another commonality. Both governments and belief in gods did not arise first. They came later, so it could be argued that a lack of government and gods is more natural. But that's beside the point.
”I don't think this is due to brainwashing and indoctrination.”
All people are born and taught in most cultures that governments are needed for numerous things. Half of the “history” in schools is nothing but telling children how great government is and how wonderful the founding fathers were... It sickens me to be honest. They're not telling these kids the truth, and I believe that is part of the problem; it is part of the indoctrination process that children are put through with this revisionist history.
But to get back to my point... These reasons that are given for the necessity of government I've refuted before (governments are needed for public goods, security, etc.) and the evidence proves that this isn't true, but most people are taught, either intentionally or not, that government is good and not having government is bad and people who don't like government are bad people. Similar to smears against atheists, and our views distorted in the popular media, anarchists are often smeared and their ideas are misrepresented. In that sense I'd say most people are indoctrinated. It is an assumption in our culture that government is necessary. Of course, as I've said over and over again, this isn't the case.
”anarchy is indeed the reason they failed [...]”
I'm sorry, but that statement came from a professor of anthropology, not some anarchist “propagandist.”
You've failed to provide any evidence that anarchy failed due to the lack of government. The fact is I could also say the same thing of governments. The Roman empire, the government in Somalia, etc. These are examples of governments failing, and the current U.S. is in a huge debt crisis and I wonder if perhaps our government may fail at some point in the not too distant future because of their incompetence. The fact is societies come and go – both anarchist and statist – so that's not a very strong objection.
My goal, like many atheists, is to change the over all views of people in order to help make a better society. The only difference being they want to lessen the influence of religion in the world, while I want to lessen the influence and prevalence of government in the world, and we do this by writing and educating people about atheism and anarchism. Like I said above, there is likely to be no real change while people continue to hold the assumptions that people like yourself hold about government and anarchism. Minds must be changed before any large-scale change can take place.
Also, I'd love to chat with you on the matter, since comments can be such a slow means of communication. I do interviews through my blog that frequently turn into debates, and you're obviously welcome to cross post anything we come up with (I know you don't need permission to post a conversation you have online, just being polite).
ReplyDeleteHi Bret,
ReplyDelete”How is it you are able to see anarchy as more than just the power vacuum before a new regime? If you think all it takes is government collapse, why has it not happened when any of the other countless governments have collapsed?”
This isn't always the case. Since 1991 Somalia had no centralized government and they're doing better than when they had a government. (Link) Another example was Medieval Iceland which thrived for over 300 years without any government. I'd also propose privatized security forces to help protect the society from outside invasion.
”I am familiar with the thought experiment of "enlightened anarchy," whereby all people are inexplicably (almost magically) capable of self-rule and self-regulation [...]”
I'm not referring to some utopia where everyone magically gets along and doesn't try to harm or take advantage of others. This is a common misunderstanding of anarchism. As I said above, I believe privatized systems can replace government and we can base our interactions upon a voluntary basis. Has this even been done you might ask? Yes, in Medieval Iceland and the system they had in place worked very well for them.
I've given some examples of actual anarchys. I linked to them in the above post.
Thanks for the comment.
Bret,
ReplyDeleteI just saw your comment about wanting to chat. Sure thing. If you'd like more of a 'live' chat you can reach me on Yahoo messenger. My handle is Arizona Atheist.
Medieval Iceland from the 10th to 13th century? The Icelandic Commonwealth, where military service was mandatory, a national legislature (the Althing) both wrote laws and interpreted them in court, and in 1000 forced all Icelanders to be baptized... that is your example? Seriously? I'm not trying to be facetious, but the fact that you got to choose which group would impose these kind of rules on you is an illusion of choice tantamount to the current situation with Democracy in America. Am I missing something here?
ReplyDeleteI am very familiar with voluntarism, but are you familiar with the societal divisions and complications inherent in parallel systems?
Privatization is just a scheme for oppressing the have-nots. Part of the current problem is how many people fall through the cracks in our society, and the answer isn't to throw anyone currently on the edge to the wolves. A privatized system doesn't address any current problem, especially in law enforcement or the military. Do you believe you must first be elected in order to wield power and abuse it?
Typo above: Yahoo handle is ArizonaAtheist (one word)
ReplyDeleteI'd agree Medieval Iceland wasn't some perfect society but it proves that one does not need a centralized government for a society to function. I'm not aware when the Norwegians came and forced Christianity on the people but that may be what you're referring to. To my knowledge that did not occur before the take over (of course, there are other examples of anarchys, such as "Utopia" and others that occurred here in the U.S for a short time).
I know there is a lot of flack about privatization and how it erodes democracy and whatnot. However, the fact is that in most cases privatization looks to work better than government run services. I also propose voluntary contractual relationships with private businesses and this arraignment helps to ensure people have a say in their daily lives with those they interact with, be it a security company or other business.
No, I do not believe one must be elected in order to abuse power. My point is that in many cases with the current system people in authority are often immune from punishment because of their positions in society. If people no longer have that automatic position of authority that takes away their power to be, essentially, untouchable. Take George W. Bush and Dick Cheney for instance. They've committed horrendous crimes but nothing is being done to them. Without government-enabled monopolies the people operating on a true free market can take charge and punish any private companies that act unethically in some way. With governments protecting companies nowadays this isn't nearly as effective.
Bret,
ReplyDeleteAfter going over your previous comment more carefully I noticed a few examples of hypocrisy. You complain about mandatory military service in this anarchist society but you are more than willing to defend the US government who does the exact same thing. The government also writes its own laws and are the courts not a part of the government? Sure, in some cases judges do strike down unjust laws but many times they uphold them and make unfair rulings in favor of the government. I'd say this occurs more often than not. So, in reality, you only have a single complaint about this anarchist society that doesn't also apply to the state you defend. And even here Christians vote to ban gay marriage and stem cell research and abortion, in effect, forcing their views on others just as they did in this anarchist society. Your complaints fall apart under scrutiny.