David Marshall Finally Replies

EDIT - 3-22-10 - I've decided to add some comments to this post in order to shed some light on this issue. The wonders of 20/20 hindsight. I wish I had saved all of our earliest exchanges which would make my job of proving him wrong that much easier. My comments will be in italics.

Marshall replied to my new review finally, and it seems that he is getting more and more desperate in his attempts to defeat me, and prove me wrong...he can't. In this post he lies about what he says in his book and I make him eat those words...though I'm curious how he will twist that around as well. While he took his usual condescending tone, he was actually able to make it through without one personal attack! I am indeed impressed. Maybe he's finally learning something about debating.



Here is Marshall's reply:

David Marshall says:

Ken has spent a lot of time and effort reviewing my book, here and elsewhere, which on one level I appreciate. (Even bad readers are still customers, and as a long-time resident of Japan, I can't help feeling that the "customer is king.") King Ken appears in this review to be trying to be more fair-minded than in past reviews, which is commendable. However, despite many corrections, he is simply not good at accurately representing what I say. I doubt he's being deliberately dishonest, but I ask readers not to take his assertions for the truth behind "The Truth Behind the New Atheism." To wit:

"He claims science is biased against supernatural events, and blames science on such things as 'abortion, social darwinism, LSD, and free love (I got a big laugh out of that one)', etc."

The notion is, indeed, laughable. I do say some scientists are biased against the possibility of miracles, as of course they are. It's hard to be sure where Ken got the idea I blame science for abortion, LSD and "free love," and as on previous occasions, he won't be able to furnish a direct quote. (LSD was invented by the chemist Albert Hofmann, but free love is as old as the hills!) My best guess would be he's referring to the section on pages 203-6, "Are We Having Fun Yet?" There I say nothing bad about "science," but do talk about the sometimes unfortunate influence of certain skeptical thinkers (Kinsey, Sanger, etc) on sexual relations.

Simple-minded skeptics project attacks on science onto this book, perhaps because that's what they expect to find. But no scientist or philosopher has found any yet.

"Because no one knows exactly how complex life arose Marshall wishes to ascribe a supernatural event as a kind of helping hand to evolution. He also quotes several historians and scientists without backing up his claims with direct evidence, which is a logical fallacy, as noted above."

Actually I make no argument in this book about the origin of life, aside from refuting Richard Dawkins' plain error in implying that the problem is solved. I conclude that section by saying, "I'm not offering an argument for God. I'm pointing out that no one knows how life arose, including Richard Dawkins."

To draw such a conclusion in three and a half pages, of course I need to quote scientists. It's a simple-minded error to assume that all arguments from authority are fallacious: citing eminent scientists to establish that a scientific question is still open is of course a legitimate thing to do. If citation were a logical fallacy, Dawkins' own books on evolution (not to mention the Origin of Species itself) would themselves be rendered pseudo-science.

Ken's quote on sex comes from the first edition, in which there is indeed a typo. (Caused, it seems, by an automatic computer spell-check.) Originally, I wrote that God "dams" human sexuality -- in the sense of directing and restraining, in order to channel it productively -- but does not "damn" it. I was a bit irritated when I found the pun got lost in the shuffle. The second printing (which readers ordering the book now receive) corrects this typo. I apologize for the error.

But "Orwellian newspeek?" Here is where skeptics like "Gifted Writer," and Richard Dawkins, really should read philosopher Nicholas Wolterstorff's Divine Discourse. Among other things, he points out that when a careful reader bumps up against a passage that doesn't make sense on a literal level, he looks for other levels of meaning. (In this case, pun / typo.) As I show, Dawkins makes the same mistake more importantly in his interpretation of the Bible, for example with the story of Abraham and Isaac. Like Dawkins, "Gifted Writer" seems too much of a literalist to exegete a text with any subtlety.

I think my point is clear. The more powerful and useful a force is, the more it can be used to harm as well as to help. No one but a fool would look around modern American society, and deny that sex is often abused, or that a lack of restraint has ruined many lives. I make no apology for finding the practice of raising children without one or the other parent -- when it is possible to do otherwise -- troubling. With all respect to single parents who are forced by circumstances beyond their control to raise children single-handedly, I do believe children are best off with loving parents of both sexes, and can't imagine how anyone who has experienced a loving intact family would think otherwise. Divorce and casual parenting hurt children. I feel terribly sorry for children who never know for themselves what the word "Dad" or (in some cases) "Mom" means.

Ken misquotes the word "God," which I capitalize, as is appropriate in standard English. (I also capitalize Ken's name, and my own. In this case, leading New Atheists like Christopher Hitchens teach their followers bad grammar as well as pettiness.)

In the story of the boy with the "hate speech" t-shirt, Ken has simply omitted my point. The point is that while Richard Dawkins accuses a 12-year old boy of "hate speech" for calling Islam a "lie," on the very next page he accuses a group of Muslims of "lying." And of course the whole point of The God Delusion is that religion in general is a lie -- which Dawkins is never shy of pointing out.

Speaking of untruths, it is more than a little dishonest for Ken to imply that I approve of the t-shirt, when I say directly that I do not. "Such a t-shirt does, I think, violate the teachings of the Apostle Paul, who says Christians should 'speak the truth in love.'" Is that not clear enough?

When corrected, critics like Ken tend to simply delete the old error, then go and make half a dozen new ones. Apparently Ken found his earlier review of this book, in which some incredible sloppiness was pointed out by another reader, too embarrassing, and he finally deleted the thing -- only to post another set of misquotes here.

I make no apology for calling Dr. Dawkins "sloppy." In my first reading of The God Delusion, I found 160 errors, gross exagerations, and highly dubious claims. Citing The Infancy Gospel of Thomas and calling it the Gospel of Thomas (twice, actually) is just one.

My use of the term "New Atheism" is partly a matter of convenience; though see my explanation in the CADRE interview. Most professional atheists with whom I've interacted have had no objection to my use of the term. But in the interview Ken mentions, I say jokingly that I invented the term, and had it stolen out from under me by spies. The other participants laughed, recognizing it (note Wolterstorff again) as a joke.

Considering the fact that The Truth Behind the New Atheism is so poorly researched, it is remarkable that with all the time and effort "Gifted Writer" has put into rebutting it, he has only found one genuine error -- one we'd already corrected. Other readers have found three or four minor typos, which I appreciate having been brought to my attention, for whatever motives. Much of the credit to this book's excellent record of surviving hostile critiques must go to my editor, who seems less credulous, and far more exacting, than the editor of The God Delusion.


Here is my reply:



I am appalled at your accusations. Once again you are the one who is guilty of misrepresenting your own book, just for the sake of making certain reviewers look bad. You claim that I made up that quote of yours about science being responsible for LSD, free love, etc. and (what you would consider at least) to be some of the worst occurrences in human history on page 219. I did not misquote you at all. I find it funny that you're the one who wrote your book, and yet can't even remember what you wrote.

You said:

"It's hard to be sure where Ken got the idea I blame science for abortion, LSD (though of course was a scientific discovery!) and "free love," and as on previous occasions, he won't be able to furnish a direct quote."

That's funny. Here is the quote from page 219:

"Science has also played the role of the witch. Brights cheerfully midwifed the birth of every modern form of barbarism. Hardly any travesty of justice, any 'bootstamping on a human face forever', has not been instituted in the name of science: Social Darwinism, eugenics, abortion, the new infanticide, free love, LSD, gas chambers, the Gulag."

Looks like you stuck your foot in your mouth once again.

This might be one small mistake I made. It seems Marshall was blaming more or less the people who used science and not science itself. However, I had come across many theists who accuse science of being bad (and often name off many of the things Marshall mentions specifically) and I unfortunately may have allowed those past experiences to taint my view of his passage. Of course, due to the ambiguity of the passage I believe it could also be read either way, and since Marshall has not been honest in the past about nearly all of my interpretations I would still take his claim with a grain of salt.

Thus far, I'd like to point out that despite all the claims by Marshall and his pals about my alleged mass confusion about Marshall's book with my earliest critiques I've shown here how only a few were off and mostly I was correct in both my interpretation and rebuttals. As I've said over and over they all wildly overstate my mistakes just to underhandedly discredit me. As can be seen, they've been at this since our earliest discussions. Again...it's no wonder I got so pissed at them! I've been having to deal with their crap and dishonesty (and insults) for a long time.

You said:

"Actually I make no argument in this book about the origin of life, aside from refuting Richard Dawkins' plain error in implying that the problem is solved. I conclude that section by saying, "I'm not offering an argument for God. I'm pointing out that no one knows how life arose, including Richard Dawkins."

"To draw such a conclusion in three and a half pages, of course I need to quote scientists. It's a simple-minded error to assume that all arguments from authority are fallacious: citing eminent scientists to establish that a scientific question is still open is of course a legitimate thing to do. If citation were a logical fallacy, Dawkins' own books on evolution (not to mention the Origin of Species itself) would themselves be rendered pseudo-science."

I know you did not state that you claim to know about the origin of life; I never said such a thing to begin with. Maybe you should re read my review a bit slower next time? I simply said that because of your bias towards a religious explanation , you wish to cast doubt in the readers' mind about the lack of information regarding the origin of life and use the god of the gaps explanation instead of any valid scientific answer. And for the record, Richard Dawkins doesn't say anywhere that the problem about the origin of life is solved. Once again, you put words into Dawkins' mouth, as you did several times in your book.

I don't have anything else to add. I showed in my addendum to Marshall's fourth chapter why I felt my critique was accurate and he intentionally or unintentionally is guilty of what I accuse him of, even if he won't outright admit it. Of course, as I noted in the addendum, he seems to be wishing to propose god as some kind of 'scientific' explanation to gaps in our knowledge, just as the highly deceitful Discovery Institute has tried to do over and over again.

For example, you claim that Dawkins says Dobson wishes to kidnap children, but I couldn't find anything in his book implying anything of the sort. You also take something that Dawkins says out of context. You quote Richard Dawkins from his book, The god Delusion, as claiming that even if an irreducible structure was found it would be "unscientific" to say that it had to have been designed. Yet, this is misleading because the title of the section where Dawkins is quoted is called, "The Worship of Gaps", and Dawkins says that if something that was "irreducibly complex" were found, it doesn't automatically mean a god designed it, and that science must investigate further, if this could have been done naturally, before evoking god in a "god of the gaps" argument.

You don't explain the context and imply that Dawkins is steadfast in his evolutionary theory, and doesn't like when people challenge it.

Those are two instances of your dishonesty...whether or not it was intentional I'm not sure, but either way, you misrepresented what Dawkins said. Of course, with that one of Dawkins accusing Dobson of wanting to kidnap kids, you apparently pulled that out of thin air.

It is a logical fallacy to do nothing but quote an authority for your "proof" and have no scientific evidence to back up your claims. That is exactly what you did in your book. A scientist's opinion on whether or not it's improbable that DNA was able to form on its own is not a valid argument, because you present no scientific evidence to support that claim.

Once again you make an issue out of the fact that I don't capitalize the word "god". Who cares? I've gone over my reasons for this before; I won't repeat them again.

I agree with everything I've said here, however, the comment about Marshall accusing Dawkins of saying how Dobson wants to kidnap kids I'm again unsure of since I do not trust Marshall's interpretation of his book. He has, as I've shown, been deceitful about several things but I go to great lengths to qualify my accusation in my PDF version of the review.

You said:

"In the story of the boy with the "hate speech" t-shirt, Ken has simply omitted my point. The point is that while Richard Dawkins accuses a 12-year old boy of "hate speech" for calling Islam a "lie," on the very next page he accuses a group of Muslims of "lying." And of course the whole point of The God Delusion is that religion in general is a lie -- which Dawkins is never shy of pointing out."

"Speaking of untruths, it is more than a little dishonest for Ken to imply that I approve of the t-shirt, when I say directly that I do not. "Such a t-shirt does, I think, violate the teachings of the Apostle Paul, who says Christians should 'speak the truth in love.'" Is that not clear enough?"

In fact you said on page 184, and I quote, "But is this really 'hate speech'? The shirt calls certain behaviors (abortion and homosexuality) wrong, and a certain belief (Islam) false. Why define the expression of such views as 'hatred'?"

You don't seem to consider such a message as hateful, and shows your bigotry, brought about because of your religious beliefs. It's odd that you would quote Paul, because the bible many times condemns homosexuality and any other religious belief as wrong. Don't tell me that you're going to go against your god's commands...you might get thrown in hell ya know...

Another instance of Marshall's deceit about what his book actually says. Again, see why I called him a liar? How else am I to interpret that passage? Marshall may have argued that Paul would condemn the shirt (highly unlikely as I cite him in the bible as saying the opposite), but Marshall seemed to approve of the t-shirt via the quote I gave above.



You say:

"When corrected, critics like Ken tend to simply delete the old error, then go and make half a dozen new ones to make up for it. Apparently Ken found his earlier review of this book, in which some incredible sloppiness was pointed out by another reader, too embarrassing, and he finally deleted the thing -- only to post another set of misquotes here."

Oh here we go once again....

I never denied my few errors. I was honest and I corrected them, which is more then I can say for you. Once again, you make unsubstantiated claims about me being 'embarrassed', when that's not the case at all. I still have the original review up at my blog, and apparently you didn't even read my reasons for doing so. Just like your misquoting of Dawkins in your book, you state another outright lie when you claim I misquoted you in my last reply. I did no such thing.

In fact, if one wants to they can go to my blog where I happily admitted my four errors (hardly the gross misrepresentation that you continue to claim). I don't mind being shown I'm wrong because that's how one learns. I find it very childish that even after I admit and correct my mistakes you continue to bring it up. Your pathetic attempt at discrediting me won't work. It's also hypocritical of you because you have yet to admit your misquotes, let alone doing anything to fix them.

I have nothing else to add, though I'd like to point out that even this early in our discussions Marshall was favoring the good old discrediting campaign. So sleezy...


You said:

"I make no apology for calling Dr. Dawkins "sloppy." In my first reading of The God Delusion, I found 160 errors, gross exaggerations, and highly dubious claims. Citing The Infancy Gospel of Thomas and calling it the Gospel of Thomas (twice, actually) is just one. At the least, no serious reader so far has denied that I show Dawkins is in over his head."


It's funny how you claim you found so many "errors"; you don't refute anything that Dawkins has said, other then your point about Dawkins accidentally quoting from the wrong book.

You say:

"Considering the fact that The Truth Behind the New Atheism is so poorly researched, it is remarkable that with all the time and effort "Gifted Writer" has put into rebutting it, he has only found one genuine error -- one we'd corrected already. Other readers have found three or four minor typos, which I appreciate having been brought to my attention, for whatever motives. Much of the credit to this book's excellent record of surviving hostile critiques must go to my editor, who seems less credulous and far more exacting than the editor of The God Delusion."

I have found many more then "one error". It's apparent that you haven't carefully gone through my review. You misquote Dawkins several times, you make use of the argument from authority too often, and you offer intelligent design as an explanation, when it's been handily refuted many times in the past. This is evidence of your sloppy research on that topic.

Your pitiful attempts to rescue your book's reputation is futile. By the way, if my objections are really as bad as you (wrongly) claim, then why do you continuously feel the need to reply to everything I say? If I was really wrong, one would think you'd just let the people read your book and see for themselves how wrong I am. But no, you feel that you must 'apologize' for your errors in an attempt to explain them away.